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What about a control panel? What about a locked safe? What about a computer? What about a blaster? If you can see these things, can you affect any and all of their components? Can you use Move Object or MLO to jam a blaster, disabling it? What about a droid? Can you use the Force to shut it down? What about a speeder? Can you use the Force to cause it to have engine failure? Where do you draw the line?




Right, as long as you have the Mind Shard force power. But I don’t recall being able to use Move Object to do that. We are still taking about Move Object right?




Well, you must have used a Perception check to see that something was there on the person. The Search application of the Perception skill covers that (Core page 70). I don’t have a problem with that. A pocket or a coat doesn’t block line of sight. But the book specifically mentions that a “wall, closed door, or similar barrier” blocks line of sight. (Core page 160).

You’re suggesting that if you can see the door, you can see “through” the door to its mechanisms. So how far through the door can a force-user see? 1 cm? 2 cm? 5 cm? 10 cm? 1 foot? How far through the door (or wall) until he can no longer “see” the latches that he wants to move with the Force? (Please don’t say Sense Surroundings.)




Then I guess jedi can walk through any locked door and blast door with no problem. Makes every jedi in the movies that was stopped by a door look like an idiot (Qui-Gon vs. blast door).

If a jedi gets on board a Star Destroyer, are you saying that there’s no door or lock or computer panel that can stop him?

Where do you draw the line? Should Obi-Wan and Anakin have been able to turn off the "ray shields" in Ep 3 since all they had to do was use the Force to move, disable, or switch off the emitters? Obi-Wan was captured in Ep 2 and was suspended by the Force cage. Should he have been able to move, disable, or switch off the emitters? Or should he have seen power lines or wires coming in through the wall to be able to block or disable them? Also, in Ep 2, when Anakin and Obi-Wan were in the arena fighting the monsters on Geonosis, why didn’t they just use the Force to pick the locks keeping them chained up? Why did they wait to break the chains another way? In my opinion, it's because you can’t use the Force to pick locks.

Who needs Mechanics when you have a jedi bypassing locks and disabling explosives and force fields with the Force? That just makes force-users unstoppable. I seem to recall people complaining that force-users are too powerful already.




Uncinematic? But Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan could have easily used the Force to open the blast door and basically end the entire Naboo-Trade Federation conflict before it even started. Why did Qui-Gon use his lightsaber and fail instead of using Move Object and succeed?

What you’re suggesting is not cinematic. It’s making force-users virtually unstoppable. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to place limits on what a force-user can do with Move Object/Move Light Object. It’s in harmony with what we see in the movies.




BINGO, thank you! Well put.

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So, I definitely lost sight of the original post, in which it was mentioned that the Blast Door in question was disabled. If that is the case, then I would require a DC 30 UtF check to open it with move object, requiring you to maintain it for perhaps two or more rounds. Why?

1) The Strength modifier of a normal blast door is 30. Given that it is disabled, it cannot make Strength checks and therefore shouldn't get a "roll" of 10. But it's still heavy and complex piece of machinery, requiring a great deal of effort and concentration on the Force users' part.

2) The blast door is going to be quite large, and one of the limitations of move object is that the object you're moving can be moved 6 squares (per round).

In addition, I'd figure out as the GM whether I wanted to door to shut automatically even when unpowered (requiring the Force user to maintain the power), or whether it is just simply stuck in whatever state of openness in which it's left.

But my previous comments still stand for powered doors

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No worries

Q1) How many rounds would you suggest for using move object to open one of these bad boys in general? I suppose it would just be situational, based on size and door layers. (Here I'm thinking back to The Force Unleashed video game where Starkiller is in the TIE Fighter facility. There are doors he just opens by approaching them (ala Obi-Wan), doors he has to Force Push through (I'd liken that to Force thrust) and then there's that dual-stage hangar door close to the beginning that he has to spend some time opening with "Force Grip" (the game's move object analog). Though I'm loath to liken tabletop game mechanics to video game mechanics, is this somewhere near you guys' lines of thought as to how things should work?)
A1) I generally would treat is as "all or nothing" rather than allowing a Jedi to maintain Move Object and thus keep trying over and over to force a door or jimmy the lock. Now they could take 10, which out of combat could be narrated as the Jedi taking a few moments to concentrate and focus on the task before them.

Q2) Would you suggest maybe a UtF vs. opposed Strength? Although that'd be almost as hard as breaking it. Or should it just happen, given enough time?
A2) I prefer to avoid extra dice rolling where I can, so I'd just use Break DC, much like Sarli's suggestion for Force Thrust vs. doors.

Q3) Maintain the power to keep it open? Or once it's open, it's open until someone actively closes it again?
A3) My thought is that if you've used Move Object to "brute force" the door open, it's going to stay open until it gets repaired or replaced.

Q4) You sure that doesn't wreck game balance? Scoundrel: "Let me slice into those door controls!" Force user: "Meh" (move object, door slides open). "Go home. You can't hit anything and we don't need your skills anymore because I have the Force." I feel like we are given hit points and Break DCs for a reason. I don't consider it being an ass to throw in some reasonable limitations on what the Force can do.
A4) See my thoughts above about using Mechanics vs. Move Object, namely the door that was "forced" open can't be closed or locked, much like a real-world door isn't much use after a SWAT team has busted their way in.

Also, setting and era is another thing to consider. Using flashy Force powers is one thing in parts of the KOTOR, Rise of the Empire, or NJO/early Legacy eras, but when Jedi are outlawed or actively hunted, ripping down doors with the Force becomes an emergency tactic since it paints a big sign saying "A Jedi Was Here!" which can be bad news when the Empire has pretty much turned popular opinion against the Jedi, or the Sith are on a "shank 'em or recruit 'em" bender.


That's the funny thing about game balance, is that every GM has a different set of preferences, no matter how slight. I do agree that Jedi shouldn't be allowed to run rampant, but I also would add GM Chris' oft-repeated remark of how Saga Edition is one of the few games to make use of the background fluff to balance certain character types, with Jedi and Droids being the big ones. Force-users have to deal with the Dark Side, and becoming over-reliant on your powers is a path to the dark side.


Hey, you had some good points that needed addressing.

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The door block LOS to things on the other side of the door. The door does not block LOS to itself. You Can See The Door. The Things the Door are made up of, are part of the door, which you can see. No you cannot see the control pedestal on the opposite side of the door. But you can see the door panel on YOUR side. Being basically familliar with the door (and I mean RainMan familliar with the door, not Engineer-familliar) is knowing if it swings or slides, and in which direction(s), that's all.

Force User takes out droids? Yep. It's still easier with an ION weapon, but they can do it. Jam a blaster? Yep, whether it is an opposed UTF vs Strength check against your trigger finger, or a mind whammy that won't "let" you pull the trigger, it happens all the time. (may I cite the "can I eject his power pack for him" query from ages ago?) There are ample examples of talents allowing Jedi to substitute UTF for a given skill, and if you want to invest in it why should Mechanics be any different? (all those tech savant Jedi out there.....Anakin, Jania, etc) That investment differentiates the Brute the Door jedi and the Finesse the Door Jedi, like the difference between Starkiller's Unleashed ability (Double Brute the Door) and being a super slick shadow agent leaving no fingerprints handwaving doors open or cameras off.

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FULONGAMER aka Johannes M. Bowers
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It's not My planet Monkey-boy! / I Waste Him With My Bowcaster!
THIS is my LIGHT-Stick!, The next one of you Furry Tree-Hugger Yub-Yub Primitives EVEN TOUCHES me...//FZOOOK!//

Ha...RainMan familiar...

_________________
Saga Edition Resources:
My Google Docs Character Record Sheet
SE Official FAQ Compilation - SE Official Errata & Clarifications - Jedi Counseling 105 to 115

Edge of the Empire Resources: Beta Updates, crib sheets, and other goodies

Being that I have actually worked on security doors. They fail in a secure state. never in an insecure state. Had they done resident evils security properly no experiment or zombies would have escaped. Just like train signals fail in a secure state.

I would also say a jedi could finesse a door open with out damaging it. They probably would need to make a knowledge disable device roll first to know how the door worked exactly then take their time using the force to operate the door shoving the mechanism through its paces and opening the door. but if you have no tools and you want to leave no sign you were there I would say you could do it. It won't be fast.

Since this would be almost directly aping the disable device portion of the Mechanics skill, if the Jedi wants to use telekinesis to force a door open without wrecking it, that's the point I'd say a talent is required to essentially let them swap their Use the Force skill for Mechanics when disabling a device.

_________________
"If you've never seen an elephant ski, then you've never been on acid."
- Eddie Izzard

Contributing Author of the GSA
Dono's Gaming & Etc Blog
Follow me on Twitter at @donovan421

and the above said Talent would basically structurally mirror all the existing "UtF for [X] Skill" Talents, like Force Pilot, Instinctive Navigation, the Medicine/First Aid Healer analog, Etc....

_________________
FULONGAMER aka Johannes M. Bowers
http://thelostholocronpodcast.info/
It's not My planet Monkey-boy! / I Waste Him With My Bowcaster!
THIS is my LIGHT-Stick!, The next one of you Furry Tree-Hugger Yub-Yub Primitives EVEN TOUCHES me...//FZOOOK!//

Except there is no talent that allows you to use UtF instead of Mechanics.

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Saga Edition RPG resource documents & reference tools:
Compiled files of all resource documents & reference tools- NPCs, character sheets, DoD, Saga Index to all feats, talents, species, weapons, etc, Star Wars web enhancements

I think Fulon & Dono are talking about what a homebrew or houserule talent for this might need to include.

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Arkansas Regional Captain & proud member of Spice Runners Squadron
Kessel Base, The Rebel Legion

"The bad guys hardly ever quote Star Wars."
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_________________
"If you've never seen an elephant ski, then you've never been on acid."
- Eddie Izzard

Contributing Author of the GSA
Dono's Gaming & Etc Blog
Follow me on Twitter at @donovan421

Thanks...
It sounds like a talent that would work for Anakin Solo or Cay Qel-Droma

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Arkansas Regional Captain & proud member of Spice Runners Squadron
Kessel Base, The Rebel Legion

"The bad guys hardly ever quote Star Wars."
Harry Dresden, Cold Days

I agree it would model their behavior better than them having mechanics skill.

I have a solution!


Force Mechanic
(New talent, part of the Alter talent tree.)
Your continual practice at using the force to manipulate objects has increased your ability to Use the Force to affect the fine objects of a mechanical component. You may use your Use the Force modifier in place of your Mechanics modifier when making Mechanics checks to Disable Device, Handle Explosives, or Jury-Rig. A security kit or tool kit is not required for you to perform these uses of the Mechanics skill. Your are considered trained in the Mechanics skill for the purposes of making these skill checks.
Prerequisite: Either the Telekinetic Power or Telekinetic Savant talent.


Not too overpowering. Sensible. The Mechanics skill rules already cover "distance for interaction" and LOS stuff. You can now UtF to make a mechanics check for very specific things - but you need to be fairly well trained in Telekinetics to do it. [shrug]

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