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I'm toying with a Twi'lek Jedi build, but I was wondering about something. Is the Jedi Heritage feat (RECG p. 34) retroactive if you take it at higher levels? The experimental build I have has Force Training taken three times, with Jedi Heritage taken at 9th level. Does the character get six more Force powers at that point?

I recall from an earlier Force user build I posted that Telekinetic Prodigy was retroactive, so I just wanted to see if that was the case with Jedi Heritage.

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Yes, it is retroactive. Just about everything in SWSE is. I can't think of anything off the top of my head that isn't. So unless the rules say something isn't retroactive, you're safe assuming it is.

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Thanks. That's what I was thinking, but thought I should get confirmation from the experts.

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When asked why there was only one set of foot prints Jesus replied, "The Sand people ride single file to hide their numbers."

Unless you have a crazy high Wisdom (by which I mean 16+ for a Twi'lek), I believe you'd be better served by taking 2 Force Trainings (at levels 1 & 3), then Jedi Heritage at level 6, then one more instance of Force Training at level 9.

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Saga Edition Resources:
My Google Docs Character Record Sheet
SE Official FAQ Compilation - SE Official Errata & Clarifications - Jedi Counseling 105 to 115

Edge of the Empire Resources: Beta Updates, crib sheets, and other goodies

Yep, as ZRissa noted pretty much everything in Saga Edition is retroactive.

Thing to bear in mind that you may want to hold off on taking this feat until 3rd or even 6th level. Also, the benefits of this feat compared to taking another Force Training start to diminish if your Twi Jedi's Wisdom goes above a 13, so if you're going to make Wisdom your top ability score, you may want to pass on Jedi Heritage and just stick with Force Training.

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Yeah, 6th level should be where he sees the most benefit from this feat.

Actually, it all depends on how many Force Training feats you take. The thing with Jedi Heritage is that it works better the more Force Training feats you have. And by my calculations, even with 20 Wisdom this build suggestion in the OP is going to benefit from JH more than he would from another FT.

To illustrate: if you have a Wisdom 20 (difficult for a Twi'lek who starts with -2 Wisdom), at level 20 you could have 48 powers with 6 Force Training feats and the Jedi Heritage feat, versus only 42 if you went all 7 Force Trainings. This ratio only improves with the less Wisdom you have, but it doesn't stop being better even if you pump your Wisdom mod into the impossible realms. With a mod of 10, we're still talking 78 powers vs. 77

It would, I suppose, help to know your character's starting Wisdom and then go from there, but generally speaking if you're taking more than like 4 or 5 feats total spent on Force powers with this build, JH is the way to go.

Of course if you're talking about optimizing a Force Wizard-type character, then I say don't go Twi'lek But if you're set on playing a Twi'lek, then yeah that species feat rocks, especially with the build you're talking about.

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Saga Edition Resources:
My Google Docs Character Record Sheet
SE Official FAQ Compilation - SE Official Errata & Clarifications - Jedi Counseling 105 to 115

Edge of the Empire Resources: Beta Updates, crib sheets, and other goodies

Like you said, it depends on how long the campaign goes. Frankly, I've only heard of a handful of SW campaigns going from 1st level all the way up to 20th, with the vast majority of them stalling out in the early to mid-teens.

A long while back I did an analysis of how much of an edge Jedi Heritage would provide over a non-Twi'lek species (i.e. one that didn't have a penalty to their starting Wisdom score) in response to some complaints about Jedi Heritage being either utterly broken or a total waste of a feat. Neither was true, but unless you know the campaign is going to be a long-runner, it becomes a bit more economical in terms of Force powers available to just take Force Training if your Twi'lek does manage to achieve a high Wisdom score.

Assuming a more realistic expectation for a Twi'lek Jedi's Wisdom score, I'm going to use 14 as the baseline, figuring that if you try to go beyond that via point buy, you've chosen to seriously gimp your character in other aspects, especially if only using 25 or 28 points.

So with a starting Wisdom of 14, a Twi'lek Jedi at 3rd level with 2 Force Trainings would have 6 Force powers, while taking Jedi Heritage and a Force Training provides just 5 Force powers. Wisdom 12 at the same level and feat selections would provide 4 powers either way, and an extreme case of a starting Wisdom of 16 would be 8 powers with 2 Force Trainings or 6 powers with Jedi Heritage and Force Training. So at this early point, not really worth taking Jedi Heritage if you want more powers early on, something most Jedi players (self included) prefer to do.

Now, at reaching 6th level with our Wisdom 14 Twi'lek Jedi, you can either have 9 powers with taking 3 Force Training feats, or 10 powers with Jedi Heritage and 2 Force Training feats, making it a bit of a break even at this point. The Wisdom 12 Twi Jedi comes out a little better at this point, as he'd have 6 powers with just the 3 Force Training feats, but 8 with Jedi Heritage and 2 Force Training feats. The Wisdom 16 Twi Jedi can either have 12 powers via taking Force Training three times, or 12 powers with Jedi Heritage and Force Training.

Assuming no bumps to Wisdom score, the Wis 14 Twi Jedi starts seeing a much better return on investment when they take a 3rd Force Training after taking Jedi Heritage, as does the Wisdom 12 Twi Jedi. The Wisdom 16 Twi Jedi does get a few more powers, but it's not as wide a disparity as it is for the lower Wisdom Twi Jedis.

If you want to extrapolate further, here's what a Twi Jedi would get based on their Wisdom score both with and without the Jedi Heritage feat:

Twi'lek Jedi with Wisdom 12
No Jedi Heritage - 2 powers per Force Training
W/ Jedi Heritage - 4 powers per Force Training
Break Even Point - 3rd level

Twi'lek Jedi with Wisdom 14
No Jedi Heritage - 3 powers per Force Training
W/ Jedi Heritage - 5 powers per Force Training
Break Even Point - 6th level

Twi'lek Jedi with Wisdom 16
No Jedi Heritage - 4 powers per Force Training
W/ Jedi Heritage - 6 powers per Force Training
Break Even Point - 9th level

Twi'lek Jedi with Wisdom 18*
No Jedi Heritage - 5 powers per Force Training
W/ Jedi Heritage - 7 powers per Force Training
Break Even Point - 12th level
*not really likely for most Twi'lek Jedi baring several level advancements and a completed Destiny or two.

Generally, the higher your Twi'lek Jedi's Wisdom score, the longer it's going to take to reach the "break even" point. And that's assuming that you're not taking anything other than Force Training as your character level feat. So while a high Wisdom score and Jedi Heritage will mean more powers per selection of Jedi Heritage, it may take several levels for you to "catch up" to what someone with a similar Wisdom score can get with just taking Force Training.

_________________
"If you've never seen an elephant ski, then you've never been on acid."
- Eddie Izzard

Contributing Author of the GSA
Dono's Gaming & Etc Blog
Follow me on Twitter at @donovan421

Ah nice I like the break-even point approach! I did the same a while back, but I was just focusing on the numbers...like, 4 FT feats and 1 JH feat vs. 5 FT feats. But that break-even analysis is really useful for actual character building and leveling.

Star Wars Saga Edition is the only thing that I use Spreadsheets for

But yeah Keith, like Dono said, the lower the Wisdom the lower he break-even point, which is why it would most likely be beneficial to take that Jedi Heritage feat at 6th level (if you point-buy a 15-2=13 Wisdom and then bump it to 14 at level 4, for example).

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Saga Edition Resources:
My Google Docs Character Record Sheet
SE Official FAQ Compilation - SE Official Errata & Clarifications - Jedi Counseling 105 to 115

Edge of the Empire Resources: Beta Updates, crib sheets, and other goodies

So, I've been wondering - what happens when a Twi'lek with really low Wisdom takes this feat? Like, say, a 6, or even a modest 8? Normally, this character would get 1 Force power per Force Training feat (if only because that's the minimum gained no matter how low your Wisdom gets), but how does Jedi Heritage interact with this? The wording of the feat says your Wisdom is considered to be 4 points higher for the purposes of determining how many Force powers you get from each FT feat, which would imply (I think) that the Twi'lek with a 6 Wis gets no benefit at all (his Wisdom is counted as a 10, which is still +0, so he'd get just the one power/feat), while the Twi'lek with 8 Wis gets one more Force point/feat (going from -1 to +1). However, the text also states (in no uncertain terms) "granting you two extra Force powers for each Force Training feat". Should I then add "assuming your Wisdom is at least a 10", or will a Twi'lek with this feat get a minimum of three Force powers per Force Training even with a Wisdom of 6 or 8 (since the minimum used to be one, and this feat says you get two extra powers for each feat)?

If it came up in a game I was running, I'd let the Twi'lek have his two extra Force powers/feat regardless of his Wisdom, but what do the rest of you think?

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IMO, "granting you two extra powers" is simply a reiteration of how Force Training works, and should not be considered part of the actual benefit. It would be way too powerful if someone just dumped their Wisdom for something else, and then suddenly they're treated as if they have 14 Wisdom. I say, take the feat exactly as written: you treat your Wisdom as 4 higher for the purposes of the Force Training feat. That's it.

In other words, if you want a bunch of Force Powers, don't dump your Wisdom.

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Saga Edition Resources:
My Google Docs Character Record Sheet
SE Official FAQ Compilation - SE Official Errata & Clarifications - Jedi Counseling 105 to 115

Edge of the Empire Resources: Beta Updates, crib sheets, and other goodies

To be fair, I wouldn't call 3 powers/Force Training to be 'a bunch', especially at the cost of another character feat - and dumping Wisdom hurts you in more ways than just your number of Force powers, such as a lower Will defense and worse Perception (meaning your Jedi is more likely to be caught flat-footed by the assassin sneaking up on him ). Besides, if your PC was just trying to break the system to become the best Force wizard the galaxy has ever seen - he'd never play a Twi'lek to begin with, he'd play a Camaasi (+4 Wis, no penalty to Cha) or a Yarkora (+2 Wis and Cha). Besides, a low Wisdom doesn't have to be the result of a deliberate attempt to dump it to gain in other abilities - some people still roll ability scores, and if you're playing a Jedi, you'll probably want decent to good scores in all your physical attributes, not to mention an above-average Charisma... I could definitely see placing a low score in Wisdom in such a case, especially if my Jedi build isn't meant to be a Force wizard but, say, a Jedi Guardian type.

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Well yes, but 12 powers compared to 4 is "a bunch" And there are definitely ways to get around those Will Defense and skill check penalties, but the best part of having a high Wisdom is more powers for Force users. I mean seriously, most would care much more about having 2 or 3 more Force powers in their suites than a +2 or +3 to Perception, yes?

I dunno. I suppose it depends on the character. I'd be willing to consider it on a case-by-case basis, but I wouldn't carte blanche it and redefine the feat as "2 more Force Powers/Force Training feat for Twi'leks." I think it would have been written more like Telekinetic Prodigy if it was meant to do that.

My visceral reaction is, "That's something for nothing." If it turned out not to really be something for nothing, that'd be cool, but Twi'leks make for some pretty mean builds as it is.

_________________
Saga Edition Resources:
My Google Docs Character Record Sheet
SE Official FAQ Compilation - SE Official Errata & Clarifications - Jedi Counseling 105 to 115

Edge of the Empire Resources: Beta Updates, crib sheets, and other goodies

By RAW, if they've got a starting Wisdom of 7 or less, then they get zero benefit. Much the same as a Jedi with no means of making a ranged attack beyond Move Light Object would get zero benefit from taking Point Blank Shot.

But if you're playing a Jedi, Wisdom is the one ability score you do not use as a dump stat.

_________________
"If you've never seen an elephant ski, then you've never been on acid."
- Eddie Izzard

Contributing Author of the GSA
Dono's Gaming & Etc Blog
Follow me on Twitter at @donovan421