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Dang.

http://montecook.livejournal.com/251404.html

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I read Monte's blog post about it, and I commend him for being a gentleman about it.

I stopped caring about the fate of D&D quite some time ago, but whether this bodes good or ill for 5th edition (or whatever buzzword WotC is using for it), time will tell.

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I'm seeing this as a negative because I'm inclined to believe all the cool stuff Monte has talked about that sounded really encouraging for 5e are likely to be the points he's butting heads against others with, meaning this could end up as nothing more than a 4.5e and buckle up for the rapid content spam v2.0

of course it could simply be a case of personal falling out and people trying to climb the corporate ladder backstabbing him along the way n such, in which Monte is just getting out of a hostile working environment which is fair enough.

either way its a negative for what we hope 5e to be in my mind.

I had very close to zero reason to be excited about 5E until I heard he was working on it. This news has put me back where I was. Not that I won't give it a chance, but he was probably the only primary reason for my hopefulness.

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You read my mind. Although I have no desire to see them fail, the loss of this man was another chronic failure on the part of WOTC. IMHO

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In a world full of people only some what to fly, isn't that crazy? (Seal)

This will win me some fans, I am sure, but -

D&D needs to die. It need to fail miserably and disappear off the landscape of RPG gaming. Publishers need to stop supporting it with ancillary products and chap books and all that sort of stuff. No more minis or novels or anything else. It needs to well and truly end.

And then, in five or ten years, when people have written it off as a dead system and the license holds no value to anyone except as a piece of wistful nostalgia of what it used to be and after WotC has been vilified for killing it (not that I wish that upon them, but that IS what will happen), some one needs to step up and buy the license from WotC and attack it with new ideas divorced from all the tripe and baggage that has come before and see it with fresh eyes.

D&D is so bogged down with trying to keep all the old players happy and collect new players that it can't actually appeal to any of them any more because they, WotC, no longer have a clear sense of direction or purpose for the game. It tries so hard to be everything to everyone that it went from being the progenitor of RPG gaming to an almost generic set of rules as lacking in true flavor and style as any of it's copy-cat competitors. Nothing really sets it apart from any of it's competitors anymore, certainly not it's former place as the historical leader in RPG gaming. Each edition launches a new set of rules and so each edition is, in essence, an entirely new game that, aside from copyrighted bits of flavor, bears no heritage with it from previous editions.

4th edition drove this home. Without rehashing a bunch of, now extremely pointless, arguments it was a totally revamped set of rules that no one who had played previous editions could be expected to pick up and play. Each new edition does this to a greater or lesser degree. It might just as well go out under any other name at all as go out under D&D. The D&D name has no more currency with which to trade, especially with 5th coming.

You sit there and hope that THIS time they'll get it right and it'll be a game you love playing. The problem is, everyone who has hung with it since it's original incarnation is also hoping this. How can the folks who think the red box is the best find common ground with those who loved 4th, or those who loved 4th find a playable game in combination with those who want a return to 3.5 or whatever combination you want to try on? There is absolutely no evidence from D&D's history under TSR or WotC that they are capable of making an edition that sits well with everyone who is still clinging on, hoping that the next will be IT.

This is why D&D needs to die. So it can find breathing room and a new publisher who will take a look at the game, a real and true look at the game, and toss out every bit of it that was an attempt to cater to everyone, an attempt to homogenize the game and make it play well with people who've never played ANY RPG before in their life and bring them to the same table at the same time as those who have been playing it for 20 or 30 years. Any attempt to keep those two separate groups happy will end in dismal failure.

D&D truly isn't the game you should play if you've never played before. By this point in it's history it really should be the game you aspire to be able to play eventually. It's the game that you should look at and say to yourself, "Some day I hope to be good enough to play D&D."

This isn't elitist thinking, this is just where D&D's development cycle should have taken it by now. It should be, because it started it all, because it's been played for so long by so many, because it has influenced EVERY other table top RPG in the market, because without it there wouldn't even be this hobby, something akin to the Holy Grail of RPG gaming. And it isn't. And to my mind that is a sad and terrible thing. And, because it can't ever reach that potential now in its current environment, you kill it. Not because you hate it, but because you can't stand to see something that means so much to you and you love, suffer like this.

Then you cross your fingers and pray. In five or ten years, maybe someone with enough vision and desire will come along and take it in hand and give it a new life so it can become what it should be. If and when that happens, THEN you will have the game worth carrying the D&D name and THEN you will have players flocking to play it and THEN you will be able to sit back and relax because it will be as good as it possibly can be.

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Interesting post, Fiddleback, though I see one major problem with it;

Unfortunately, WotC isn't the company one would need to buy D&D from - that'd be Hasbro, WotC's corporate overlords. And whenever I see someone suggesting that someone else buy the D&D brand, the inevitable response is always "Hasbro does not sell their IP, especially if they think they might profit from it again in the future." Since D&D does sell (it's been either the best or second-best selling RPG for years and years now), Hasbro isn't going to give up the rights to it. Then there's the novels to consider as well - think about how many copies are sold of each new R.A. Salvatore-novel, for one. I'm sure other writers are selling decent numbers as well, but Drizzt is still huge. Even if 5E completely and totally fails, and Hasbro decides to shelve the RPG line for the time being, they can still profit off the brand through novels - and then there's always the possibility of licensed video games, graphic novels, even (animated) movies. There's more than enough potential future profit in retaining the brand to make the sale of it a non-issue, I'm afraid.


As to the issue of Monte leaving WotC, I'm not sure what to make of it. I've never read any products of his, I'm pretty sure, though I am curious why he would leave so suddenly, and what his differences with the company were. I was fairly optimistic when it comes to 5E, based on what I'd read in their blogs, that it could be a fantasy RPG I'd enjoy playing. I'll definitely still be picking up the core books - I've still got the core books for 4E, as well as the PHB2 and DMG2, though I'm not a huge fan of that system. I can still have fun playing it, though, last summer I had a good time playing in a weekly D&D Encounters group, and I'm sure if nothing else, 5E will still be a game I'll have fun playing with a good group. The real question is, will it make me want to GM using that system, and possibly take over from Pathfinder as my favored fantasy RPG? I look forward to the upcoming playtest, and until I've had a chance to take a look at the rules for myself, I'll keep as open a mind as possible. It might just be an excellent game, and if it's not, I'll keep playing Pathfinder, so either way, I'm good.

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I'm not sure I really undestand this idea. It almost sounds as though you're advocating for a system so rules dense and clunky that it would serve as a barrier to entry for anyone who hasn't developed the intuitive understanding of game mechanics that a lot of us long term players have. And really, who wants to deal with that? It's almost a cliche to bring it up, but does anyone out there really believe that thAC0 was the best way to facilitate enjoyment of the game?

D&D is entry level and it always will be, simply due to name recognition amoungst non-gamers. Personally, I'll be head over heals if I never stab another kobold, yet when I'm discussing hobbies with people, I don't say that I role-play, or that I play 'Mutants & Masterminds' or 'Shadowrun', or any other RPG that I enjoy and want to play; I tell them I play D&D, because there's an immediate cultural recognition -- which has both negative and positive aspects -- that gives them all the essential information. If they're interested I can expand upon that to give them a more complete picture, or move on to something else if not.

Having D&D be a game that's accessible to anyone who might want to try it is good for the gaming industry because if someone is new to role-playing, chances are D&D is going to be the game they're going to be interested in, because it's the one they know about. Sure, a Lovecraft fan might find the 'Call of Cthulhu' wiki page, or a 'Star Wars' geek might find the WEG 'Star Wars' RPG collecting dust on the shelf at a used book store, but for the most part it's D&D. Putting it on a pedestal as something to be aspired to benefits no one.

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Honestly, I shrug.

D&D 5th edition is largely already in play testing of some sort. A lot of the key ideas that he wanted to add to the game are likely already there. What would change is future product to be release and final tweaking of the game. So I don't think he honestly would have impacted 5e more or less than he already has in the next few months.

On the other hand, one of Cook's biggest projects was being on the design team for 3rd Edition... and I loathe 3rd edition... so maybe a bit of hope has been rekindled for me.

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