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 Post subject: #011 - Character Concept Workshop - Jeannie, Duelist
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:07 am 
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Sith Apprentice

Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:23 am
Posts: 230
From the eastern deserts of Qadira comes Jeannie, a dervish of Sarenrae who always gets her way.

The sheets: http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=10944

So I've always like the duelist. Primarily because I don't like the Big Dumb Fighter all that much, and the duelist is an intelligent fighter with some class. As a duelist, you gain quite a few witty roleplay elements that can make a character quite entertaining. On Jeannie, I've taken the angle of someone who was brought up knowing that she can do what she likes, and has gained the skill to back it up. A faithful servant of Sarenrae, Jeannie believes the goddess guides her in combat, allowing her to see the enemy's movements before they're even being made.

In reality, Jeannie's just that damn fast. However, for her devotion, Sarenrae blesses her blade with fire when it strikes a particularly good blow.

So breaking it down we have a martial character with a minor divine connection and a huge elitism streak. Let's see if we can't reflect that in mechanics.

Traits:
Flame of the Dawnflower (+2 fire damage on scimitar crit)
Keleshite Princess (+1 Diplomacy and Intimidate, Diplomacy class skill)

Now, the idea here is to get the feel of a desert warrior, and to play up the typical "waif fu" of the female dex-based archtype. You should never hit this character, and it should be capable of dancing around you with ease. So we're starting with 6 levels of fighter and then moving on to duelist. Duelist builds get insane AC and are one of the most difficult characters in the game to damage. In fact, the only thing harder to actually drop than a fighter/duelist is a paladin/duelist (which could be an alternate build if you roll high enough stats! I would take levels 5 & 6 as Paladin levels if you wanted to do that, moving whirlwind to level 7)

The Feats:

H - Power Attack (Because you can)
1 - Weapon Finesse (Because dexterity is your primary stat)
F1 - Dodge (Prereq for duelist)
F2 - Dervish Dance (Jeannie likes scimitars)
3 - Mobility (Prereq for duelist)
F4 - Spring Attack (You're this far already, may as well finish!)
5 - Combat Expertise (Because more AC is good when it pushes enemy to-hit rolls into the "I need to crit" range)
F6 - Whirlwind Attack (And since we're here already, why not take some action economy.)
7 - Improved Disarm (Whirlwind disarm is a beautiful thing)

Now, the important thing to note is the fighter is not a basic fighter. It's a Free Hand Fighter, which means while we get all our proficiencies, wearing medium or heavy armor and a shield is not going to work. (Though a mithral breastplate is an AMAZING peice of armor for a dervish of Sarenrae!)

At 2nd level the free hand fighter replaces bravery with Deceptive Strike, granting a +1 bonus to CMB and CMD, which increases to +2 at level 6.

At 3rd level the free hand fighter replaces armor training with Elusive. Now elusive grants a +1 dodge bonus when not wearing medium armor or heavier. (Note that it does not care if you're wielding a shield) Also note that it says it increases every 4 levels after 2nd, not 3rd. This is probably a typo, and I'm still waiting for word back from Paizo on that. It's clearly meant to replace armor training which increases by 1 for every 4 levels after 3rd. GM's outside society, I would rule it as such. In society, I would use RAW until errata changes otherwise. A +1 bonus isn't going to murder your organized play table, as OP players are very good at gathering +1 bonuses from elsewhere anyway.

At 5th level you gain Singleton, which allows you to gain a +1 to attack and damage rolls when using a weapon and free hand. This ability does not ever increase, unlike the rest of the fighter variants. That's important because it encourages us to class into duelist.

The duelist class we begin taking at level 7. By now you should have all the necessary prerequisites. This build only gets 1 level of duelist, but it grants some pretty awesome advantages. First: You gain Acrobatics, bluff, escape artist, perception, and sense motive as class skills. That's HUGE. Acrobatics is a key skill fighters do not get and it's important for battlefield mobility. Bluff adds to the Keleshite princess to allow Jeannie access to diplomacy, intimidate, and bluff. (Another good reason to take a decent charisma when not on the point buy system.)

The duelist also gets canny defense, which gives her an additional AC equal to either her duelist class level or her intelligence modifier, whichever is lower. This is added with your dexterity modifier, so it applies to all AC's (Including CMD) except being flat footed. The duelist also gets precise strike this level, which the dervish dance feat allows you to use with a scimitar, granting +1 damage. The precise strike only works on foes that can be critically hit. However, its name belies its dirty secret. While it is implied that precise strike is precision damage, it is not stated in the ability itself that it is precision damage. Thus, it can in fact multiply on critical strikes. (Which explains the duelist's penchant for the Rapier!)


In all, Jeannie is an incredibly mobile fighter that can wreck an enemy force's day when she decides to stop for a moment and fight the pack that's following her. Between spring attack and whirlwind attack you should always have a good target, and a free hand is actually quite useful in combat. Enjoy!


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 Post subject: Re: #011 - Character Concept Workshop - Jeannie, Duelist
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:23 am 
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Super Hero in Training

Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:52 am
Posts: 50
Any word yet from Paizo on Elusive?


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 Post subject: Re: #011 - Character Concept Workshop - Jeannie, Duelist
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:29 am 
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Super Hero in Training

Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:52 am
Posts: 50
Can I get a rule clarification on this:

According to my iPhone PFSRD APP:

When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

Does this mean feats like weapon focus do not apply? Or is this saying bonus attacks or extra attacks and not simply bonuses?


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 Post subject: Re: #011 - Character Concept Workshop - Jeannie, Duelist
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:37 am 
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GM
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Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:06 pm
Posts: 556
Globetrotter wrote:
Can I get a rule clarification on this:

According to my iPhone PFSRD APP:

When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

Does this mean feats like weapon focus do not apply? Or is this saying bonus attacks or extra attacks and not simply bonuses?


IMO, it means that weapon focus does not apply.

The Idea of Whirlwind Attack is you can make an attack against every foe within reach in one round. To counterbalance what might prove to be an awesomely powerful attack from the feat, you get to use only your BAB to do it. That's it.

The real question is whether enhancement bonues from items count (Specifcally, the weapon enhancement bonus from a +2 magic blade, say.). In the feat description, it is equivocal on this point. I'm not sure of the ruling on this, but perhaps Research might be.

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.Robert


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 Post subject: Re: #011 - Character Concept Workshop - Jeannie, Duelist
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:27 am 
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Super Hero in Training

Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:52 am
Posts: 50
I also agree. I'm curious what research thinks.

It could be argued that the heavy feat tax would allow for the use of bonuses (five feats + two good stats). Is it worth this level of commitment just to get an extra attack or two a your highest attack? Greater cleave gives you this with a restriction, maybe the additional feats compensate to have the restriction removed.

I wonder how often this feat comes into play? I don't recall my players being surrounded too often, yet since this allows one attack per threatened creature... This ability also led me down the road thinking:

Could you whirlwind attack and trip? What if you had greater trip? Vs 5 enemies, would you effectively get 10 attacks (5 trip attacks with one follow-up attack per successful trip)?

I'll start scouring the piazo forums and FAQ.


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 Post subject: Re: #011 - Character Concept Workshop - Jeannie, Duelist
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:22 am 
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Padawan Learner
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Location: Montreal-ish
Globetrotter wrote:
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

Does this mean feats like weapon focus do not apply? Or is this saying bonus attacks or extra attacks and not simply bonuses?


I think the key to this is the word "bonus". It is not "bonuses" or "bonus to attack". Whirlwind attack forfeits "bonus or extra attacks". Reverse the order, extra or bonus attacks, and it's the same meaning but clearer. When you whirlwind attack, you don't get an extra attack for two weapon fighting or having haste cast on you. You get one attack against each adjacent creature following all the normal rules for attacking, including weapon focus, sneak attack, favoured enemy, magic weapon properties, etc.

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We lost a lot of good hit points that day.


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 Post subject: Re: #011 - Character Concept Workshop - Jeannie, Duelist
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:15 pm 
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Super Hero in Training

Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:52 am
Posts: 50
After reviewing the Paizo boards, I would agree.


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 Post subject: Re: #011 - Character Concept Workshop - Jeannie, Duelist
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:35 pm 
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Sith Apprentice

Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:23 am
Posts: 230
Sorry about not seeing this sooner, I'm in the process of moving to another state.

The question's a good one, but the only thing whirlwind changes is bonus or extra attacks. Pretty much nothing in the game removes a static modifier unless it specifically calls out which modifiers it affects. This feat specifies both bonus and extra attacks to cover its own ass for any wording mishaps between haste spells, rapid shots, two weapon fighting feats, or whatever else might accidentally become usable with whirlwind attack (Which is basically the most powerful attack feat in the game). The intent is basically "You're getting ONE full BAB, full everything attack on everything within reach. You are done attacking." Note that by my interperetation this should also limit you to one AoO that turn as it turns off your combat reflexes bonus attacks as well!

I've never had a problem with the whirlwind attack power level. Typically, anyone who gets it either isn't doing so until level 7 or their feat-baggery is killing their other combat abilities to the point of being useless in any situation that doesn't call for a whirlwind attack. The GM directly controls how powerful whirlwind attack is with monster placement. Don't forget: Typically by level 7 people know who the hell the PCs are, and stop being surprised that the fighter gets an omnislash when they pack in each combat.


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 Post subject: Re: #011 - Character Concept Workshop - Jeannie, Duelist
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:49 pm 
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Super Hero in Training

Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:52 am
Posts: 50
I didn't think about it effecting combat reflexes... Nice catch


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 Post subject: Re: #011 - Character Concept Workshop - Jeannie, Duelist
 Post Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:13 pm 
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Sith Apprentice

Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:23 am
Posts: 230
Asked for a clarification from James and was informed that whirlwind attack does NOT affect bonus attacks from combat reflexes as the feat only kills extra attacks during YOUR turn, not the entire round.


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 Post subject: Re: #011 - Character Concept Workshop - Jeannie, Duelist
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:28 pm 
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n00b

Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:56 pm
Posts: 1
I'm also assuming that the "extra" attacks would include those granted by improved trip. Did they get rid of the spiked chain whirlwind tripping blender?


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 Post subject: Re: #011 - Character Concept Workshop - Jeannie, Duelist
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:37 pm 
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n00b

Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:17 pm
Posts: 1
Greeting everyone.
I am relatively new to Pathfinder (though not to D&D or RPGs on general), and I was hoping that some of you experts might give me some advice on possible Feats (4 in total if I am correct) for taking this character through the remaining 10 levels of Duelist. My GM will be running the Legacy of Fire AP, and I thought that this build would be perfect.
Thanks in advance.


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