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 Post subject: zero range + counterpunch = ?
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:50 pm 
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A ranged character that takes the zero range feat makes himself quite powerful in close combat adding 1 dice of damage and +1 in his attack roll. If this character wanted to maximize his efficiency in battle he could try to advance as a "melee" character with the only difference being the fact that he uses a blaster instead of a club..
Now, would you allow a PC like this one make use of the counterpunch talent? Its evident that the talent was added for the use of melee characters but its description doesn't prevent it from being used by ranged ones, and if they have the zero range feat this talent makes them quite powerfull, especially if they have the combat reflexes feat..


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 Post subject: Re: zero range + counterpunch = ?
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:24 pm 
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As Zero Range and Counterpunch are written, I don't see why not, but keep in mind you must fight defensively to gain the benefit of Counterpunch. The -5 penalty to attack from fighting defensively (mitigated slightly by the +1 bonus from Zero Range) would seem to limit the effectiveness of this combo.

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 Post subject: Re: zero range + counterpunch = ?
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:43 pm 
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Add the opportunistic shooter and point blank shot feats and you reduce the penalty to -1. I gladly take that sacrifice if it means that I can attack a group of 5 and probably defeat them all.. (1 attack, 4 AoO with the combat reflexes feat, 4d8 damage each hit)


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 Post subject: Re: zero range + counterpunch = ?
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:12 pm 
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Klokothejawa wrote:
Add the opportunistic shooter and point blank shot feats and you reduce the penalty to -1. I gladly take that sacrifice if it means that I can attack a group of 5 and probably defeat them all.. (1 attack, 4 AoO with the combat reflexes feat, 4d8 damage each hit)


Except that if you are fighting defensively, any enemies would have to be stupid to attack you. First of all because you are much harder to hit, and secondly because they will provoke an AoO from you if they attack. And if you spend your action fighting defensively and no one attacks you, your damage output for the round is going to be 0. Not saying it's a bad idea, just something to be aware of.


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 Post subject: Re: zero range + counterpunch = ?
 Post Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:32 am 
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By RAW the combo works, since Counterpunch just says "attack of opportunity," and I don't think it got errata'd. Though to me at least, the notion is that with Counterpunch, you're slugging someone with a fist or melee weapon that just tried to take a shot at you. Sort of like a boxer, fists up in a defensive guard, who bobs out of the way of the other guy's punch before retaliating with a quick jab of his own.

And as BDG noted, you're taking a -5 penalty to your attack roll just for fighting defensively, making it more likely that you're going to miss. If the GM is running their bad guys with any modicum of smarts, then after the first couple times the character does this, the GM will likely have their bad guys pull back and then blast you, negating the benefits of both the talent and the feat. Or they may opt to go after other PCs who they have a better chance of hitting instead.

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 Post subject: Re: zero range + counterpunch = ?
 Post Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:36 am 
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Yes I see what you mean, but I think it would be a bit unrealistic if you get in the center of a group of five and they simply ignore you..


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 Post subject: Re: zero range + counterpunch = ?
 Post Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:56 am 
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Klokothejawa wrote:
Yes I see what you mean, but I think it would be a bit unrealistic if you get in the center of a group of five and they simply ignore you..

Not if you've got NPCs that are aware your character likes to use that tactic. Which can very well happen if you keep using it in every fight; eventually word gets around, and you've got bad guys that know to not attack you when in very close quarters, and to not group together like that in the first place. Again, it all comes down to how much tactics the GM applies to their bad guys. I've nearly killed mid-level PCs with rank-and-file CL 1 stormtroopers simply by having the stormtroopers use intelligent tactics rather than stand out in the open and die like lemmings.

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 Post subject: Re: zero range + counterpunch = ?
 Post Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:39 am 
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Well yes, I'm definitely not saying that this is the absolute technique, the answer to everything :P The way I see it, with 1 talent and 2 or 3 feats you can make a ranged character highly effective in close-combat..
And anyway, I think that if the GM wants to kick your a** there's nothing you can do about it :P all characters have weak points and if you try to cover them all you end up with a character whose defenses are high but his damage output is very low..


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 Post subject: Re: zero range + counterpunch = ?
 Post Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:23 am 
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I do like this idea. I would make sure to take Martial Arts to back it up (in case you don't have a gun handy at the moment) and then flavor it as being trained in gun-fu.


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 Post subject: Re: zero range + counterpunch = ?
 Post Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:04 pm 
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To maximize your Zero Range + Counterpunch combo, I would add:

Talents:
Draw Fire (Soldier talent): Force the opponent to attack you and provoke an AoO

Opportunity Fire (Gunslinger talent, LE page 41): You gain a +2 bonus on AoO made with rifles.

Shoot from the Hip (Gunslinger talent, LE page 41): You can always use a rifle to make attacks of opportunity.

Feats:
Combat Reflexes – a must for this build

Withdrawal Strike (KOTOR page 35) - opponents can't withdraw from squares you threaten. They can tumble, but only if they're trained in Acrobatics.

Opportunistic Shooter (GaW page 25): gain a +2 bonus to attacks of opportunity with ranged weapons.

Tactical Advantage (S&V page 25): When you damage an opponent using an AoO, you can immediately move 1 square; does not provoke AoO.

Charging Fire (Core page 82): Good to get into your opponent's face fast.

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 Post subject: Re: zero range + counterpunch = ?
 Post Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:39 am 
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richterbelmont10 wrote:
To maximize your Zero Range + Counterpunch combo, I would add:

Talents:
Shoot from the Hip (Gunslinger talent, LE page 41): You can always use a rifle to make attacks of opportunity.

If you're doing this particular build, you're probably better off just using a collapsable stock instead of spending a valuable Gunslinger talent on this.

In fact, my particular preference for the "melee gunner" build would be a Scattergun with a collapsed stock. Being able to walk around with a 3d8 gun that's only licensed is pretty neat, plus it's piercing damage (which is much less commonly defended against than Energy), plus it's not a blaster so it can't be redirected by those darn Jedi/Sith. You're going to try to be at Zero Range anyway, so the inaccurate quality and reduced damage at range are not really relevant to you, and with ZR, Point Blank Shot, and Rapid Shot you're looking at something like 5d8+1 damage per shot at no attack penalty, which is pretty awesome.

And anyway it's just cool.
Quote:
Feats:
Withdrawal Strike (KOTOR page 35) - opponents can't withdraw from squares you threaten. They can tumble, but only if they're trained in Acrobatics.

Ooh, no can do on that one. Text of the feat: "When wielding a melee weapon from the chosen weapon group..."

Quote:
Charging Fire (Core page 82): Good to get into your opponent's face fast.

I would say this is very nearly a must-have for this character concept.


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 Post subject: Re: zero range + counterpunch = ?
 Post Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:33 pm 
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Darth Pseudonym wrote:

Quote:
Charging Fire (Core page 82): Good to get into your opponent's face fast.

I would say this is very nearly a must-have for this character concept.


Add in Mandalorian Training from the KOTORCG to get that nice little attack bonus and you've got a mean, mean frontier sheriff build.

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 Post subject: Re: zero range + counterpunch = ?
 Post Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:43 pm 
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Darth Pseudonym wrote:
Quote:
Feats:
Withdrawal Strike (KOTOR page 35) - opponents can't withdraw from squares you threaten. They can tumble, but only if they're trained in Acrobatics.

Ooh, no can do on that one. Text of the feat: "When wielding a melee weapon from the chosen weapon group..."


Easy solution. Choose simple weapons as the weapon group for Withdrawal Strike. Unarmed weapons are considered simple melee weapons, and you are always wielding your unarmed weapons.


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 Post subject: Re: zero range + counterpunch = ?
 Post Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:09 pm 
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Big_Dumb_Gamorrean wrote:
Easy solution. Choose simple weapons as the weapon group for Withdrawal Strike. Unarmed weapons are considered simple melee weapons, and you are always wielding your unarmed weapons.


What race has blasters as Unarmed Weapons? Also, how do I not piss them off?

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 Post subject: Re: zero range + counterpunch = ?
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:18 am 
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He's not saying that a race has blasters counting as unarmed attacks, he's saying that every creature is considered armed with their natural attacks, whether by punches or kicks, and thereby so threaten with a melee weapon. By taking Withdrawal Strike (simple), you threaten an opponent with your unarmed attacks, but achieve the same effect of preventing an opponent from running away from you.

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