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Hey, guys. Question regarding occupying an enemies' space.

I was playing a darksider as a cameo in my game back home. We were pitted against and AT-AT, though we started pretty far away. First round I used Surge to get up to it, and the second round I Surged again to jump up to the cockpit to try to break through with my lightsaber. My GM said that according to the rules, I couldn't do this as I could not occupy the same fighting space as an enemy. I pointed out that Luke did something similar in Empire, and my GM agreed, but he said that the RAW still didn't allow for it. Since my GM does not use house rules, I was wondering if this was correct. I looked for it in the rules, but only found the bit about moving through an enemies' space.

Thanks guys.

I think I read a post on here how this could be handled. I do not think it was anything from the books but more the great bunch of GM's here saying how they would handle it.

I probably would have set the jump/climb check to get up on top of the AT-AT kind of high, high enough no non Jedi and some Jedi would not be able to make it.
But if you did make it then would GM fiat that you must cut open the hull back behind the cock pit (so at least the pilots can come out die with a chance of hitting you). But would have had something like several rounds of you punching the saber through the skin and cutting it open. Might knock some hit points off of it too.
But I am very much a subscriber to if it is cool and thinking outside the box, I AM ALL FOR IT.

Sometimes though my players take advantage of it a little and I am slight push over. But it does make for some remember-able moments.
Your GM though has the right to not allow it though. It is his game after all. Maybe he really needed the AT-AT to stay up more rounds to pose a bigger threat. Who knows. I found unless it is clearly something easy and very much written into the rules I would go with whatever the GM wants.
I find it helps to keep the game moving and keep them from getting upset and possibly not GM'ing for you anymore.

Of course your GM is within rights to disallow anything...but not being able to stand on top of an AT-AT? That's kinda nonsensical to me. Perhaps there were other considerations taken, but at face value, yeah I'd have treated the AT-AT as terrain for those purposes.
Furthermore, cutting your way in to an AT-AT's cockpit with a lightsaber probably needs the rules for multipart objects applied (SECR 152); possibly give it like 50 or 100 hp, DR 20.

Regarding occupying an enemy's fighting space, normally yeah you can just occupy the same space as a stormtrooper if you're a Bothan. Just doesn't work, spatially. That makes sense. But here's a little something for your GM's consideration:
On SECR 161, under Reach, we see the Smaller Creatures' clause: "A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature must be in your space to attack you" (emphasis mine).
There is definitely precedence for a much smaller creature being able to share fighting space with a much larger creature (or vehicle, I'd say). So yeah, I'd allow it under most circumstances. The AT-AT is a hulking piece of angular machinery with relatively straight planes that really should be easy to stand on (provided you're able to actually get on top of it!). And besides that, to be able to attack an AT-AT with a melee weapon you would need to be inside its fighting space in the first place.

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+1 the above,

Add to that this specific KISS distinction: the AT-AT is a VEHICLE, the troopers DRIVING it are the enemy. A Vehicle may certainly be boarded (interior or exterior) and treated as such. Perhaps treat exterior (top, bottom, sides, legs, etc) as a Hazardous Terrain, while actions in the crew/passenger areas are Vehicle Interior Map.

What, is the GM going to forbid shipboard combat on a freighter boarding action just because there is still fire beng engaged with Starfighters outside?!?!

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Awaypturwpn makes a good point. The issue is that the rules as written are biased toward medium sized characters. There are four increments of size difference between a human and an AT-AT. This is equivalent to a fly (fine size) trying to fight a human. The fly in allowed to enter the human's space because it is extremely small in comparison to the human. Unfortunately the rules do not take relative size into account, because the rules are geared toward medium sized characters. I would probably house rule that you can enter into the fighting space of something three sizes larger or smaller than yourself.

Also consider that by RAW, the AT-AT is also blocked from walking through the human's fighting space, which is even more absurd than the example in the topic. As if the driver cares that some puny human is in the way.

I could've sworn there was a rule that you can share a space with a creature two or more sizes bigger than you, but maybe that's from D&D 4e.

I think it can be inferred. Seeing as a Tiny creature must share a space with a Medium creature in order to make a melee attack, that seems like a reasonable inference/house rule. I suppose it could get a little messy with Small and Large PCs, but I can't see any way of it being game-breaking.

_________________
Saga Edition Resources:
My Google Docs Character Record Sheet
SE Official FAQ Compilation - SE Official Errata & Clarifications - Jedi Counseling 105 to 115

Edge of the Empire Resources: Beta Updates, crib sheets, and other goodies

I think my GM said he was going to look into it more, but this was a while ago, and it was a cameo character (since I'm in the Army and don't get to game with the group often), so I don't know if he did. If it is not actually in the rules, I'll talk to him about treating it as maybe terrain or a skill challenge, something that is in the rules we can use to cover these types of situations. Thanks guys.

[Pedantry generator online]

It's implied. The speaker or writer implies ('suggests') something in his presentation; the audience infers ('deduces') something from what was said.

[Pedantry generator shutting down]

Yeah thanks...I realized that after I wrote it. It's a good inference, and the rule is implied.

_________________
Saga Edition Resources:
My Google Docs Character Record Sheet
SE Official FAQ Compilation - SE Official Errata & Clarifications - Jedi Counseling 105 to 115

Edge of the Empire Resources: Beta Updates, crib sheets, and other goodies

Yea...
I'd let it go.
That would be hecka cool to be a part of!
Way cinematic. And cinematics rule above RAW...
*beer*

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I have ruled in the past that medium sized creatures can occupy the same space as an AT-AT. I even had one of my Jedi use his favorite combo of Surge + Inertia to run right up on top of the thing, then cut his way in through the top hatch (along with Acro rolls to keep from falling off as it walked). It was pretty cinematic, especially since there was a Sith inside with a lit lightsaber at the throat of an adolescent Luke Skywalker with a prepared action to decapitate him, which he did (I did a brief alternate future where the more they affected the timeline, the more evil it got - it ultimately resulted in a genocide of the Jawas via an Empire orbital bombardment of their mountain fortress, the death of Luke and Obi-Wan, and a Sith version of Yoda as Sidious' apprentice ).

So in the end, I suppose I treated the AT-AT like movable terrain (and modeled it with a piece of upside down rectangular tupperware! ) It worked out very well.



Not everything that happens in the movies has to be doable in the game system (indeed some of what happens in the movies can't be done by RAW). However, the movies are an excellent guide as to what constitutes cinematic action. I have allowed many things that aren't RAW simply because they were very cool and cinematic in nature. Like GM Chris says, "When in doubt, err on the side of the player." I would add, err on the side of cinematic coolness!

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aka Jim Jedi-Scramble

Quoting from the Saga Edition Core Rulebook: "The galaxy is a dangerous place (p. 143)...bad things happen sometimes. (p.246)"

NO!....not...the...Pedantry generator! Awaypturwpn is peaceful...he has no weapons!!

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aka Jim Jedi-Scramble

Quoting from the Saga Edition Core Rulebook: "The galaxy is a dangerous place (p. 143)...bad things happen sometimes. (p.246)"

*Field-creates a weapon as a Standard action, kits it out with the Tech Specialist "Pedantry Generator Destroyer" Weapon Trait*

_________________
Saga Edition Resources:
My Google Docs Character Record Sheet
SE Official FAQ Compilation - SE Official Errata & Clarifications - Jedi Counseling 105 to 115

Edge of the Empire Resources: Beta Updates, crib sheets, and other goodies

I would like to add as a GM/DM who has done a game or two with a rules lawyer in the group. That I make sure my players know now my rule argument house rule.

Be damn well sure it is worth an argument before you begin said discussion/argument. I look at it like this. A game with 6 players and one of the players wants to argue a rule point for 10 minutes (digging thru books and discussing).... 6you are not wasting 10 minutes of time in my eyes. Mt equation is this 5 players + 1 GM/DM = 6. 6 x 10mins = 1 hour of time you have used/wasted (if arguing something moot and stupid).

So I beg caution about trying to discuss rules for to long or often during the game. But this goes to finding the right group for you with the right GM/DM for your groups play styles. That will cut this down a lot.

I came up with this due to I am pretty laid back and all about the fun. I also believe the story arc I come up with is just a outline sketch, and the players fill in the rest or sometimes alter. But a asshat min maxer or just general douche bag can come along and try and abuse it for any numerous reasons. Therefor my house rule. You waste 1 hour of time via my equation and it is something silly be ready for your punishment I mean reward.