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I am running a highly modified DoD game for friends right now. I got a question on Force use and detection and one on a Force lightsaber power.

The game time period is a couple months after the end of the Episode 3 movie Revenge of the Sith. My question is PC force use, and detection of it by the Emperor and Vader.
1- How much use would get their attention?
1a- Would it be something like an extra high UtF check (nat20) might have a chance to get the Emperor's attention across the Galaxy?
1b- Would it be a lot of usage say a bunch of force powers in one encounter?
1c- Or both of the above?

I was thinking of a 0 to 5 scale and have a high roll bump it up 1 notch. 1notch ='s a 10% chance end of the day to have got someone's attention. But I started thinking maybe even just low level basic usage might get attention. I was wondering your guys ways of dealing with this.

2nd I was swindled into letting the Jedi use the Force Power Lightsaber Forms in JATM. One chose Hawk-Bat Swoop.... my problem is for the action cost it say "Time: Action" JATM page 31
2-Is this a type-o and if it is what is the proper action cost?
2b- If not a type-o then what does thiat mean?
2c- and well how does this power work? I think knowing the action cost might help me understand this but just in case.

It looks to me like it is your turn as the Jedi, and you use this power at whatever action cost. You roll a UtF check and compare to the results chart for the power. Then move if you are adjacent an enemy you may attack with your lightsaber. But I mean normally move action to move to your target (granted you could still get hit with AoO's) then a standard action to attack normally. So I was thinking this is alike a jedi charge type thing. Maybe a standard action to use it. That way you could use your move action to move close but then this action to get closer without getting hit with AoO's or just to get that bit further that 6 sq movement did not cover and still get an attack.
One example I can see a good use for this would be the example in the core book of Mace and the 2 humanoids and the Rancor. This would allow him to get past the humanoids with no AoO's and through the Rancors extra sq of reach with no AoO.

Any help will be appreciated.

I really don't think that Vader and the Emperor just sit around all day trying to sense the Force being used. I'd say the Force use would have to be massive enough to affect hundreds of lives to draw attention. But that doesn't mean they won't notice the PCs; the PCs probably klled a good number of stormies.

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Duct tape is like the Force; it has two sides and binds the galaxy together.

Pretty sure this got covered in the Order 66 episode discussing JATM, but Hawk-Bat Swoop is supposed to be a Standard action.

The way I've been running the power is as follows:
Step 1 - The Jedi chooses a target that is up to 8 squares away, which is the maximum range of the power).
Step 2 - As a Standard action, the Jedi makes their Use the Force check, and compares the result to the effect chart for the power.
Step 2a - If the allowed movement is enough for the Jedi to reach their target (such as needing a 25 for a target 5 squares away and rolling a 27), then they move the number of squares between them and the target (provoking no Attacks of Opportunity for doing so), and make their melee attack against their intended target.
Step 2b - If the allowed movement isn't enough for the Jedi to reach their target (such as needing a 25 for a target 5 squares away but only rolling a 21), then the power fails and the Jedi has used their Standard action for that round with nothing to show for it.
Step 3 - If the target has the Ataru talent, they can take their extra movement after the attack and any after-effects have been resolved.

Also, as far as being "swindled" into allowing a player to take Lightsaber Form powers... dude, you're the freaking GM! If you honestly feel those powers are disrupting your game, then take the player aside, tell him how you feel about having those powers in your game, and ask if he would consider re-select his character's Force powers to not include any of the Lightsaber Form powers. If the player in question is a decent fellow, he shouldn't have any problem with this.

Regarding Vader and the Emperor "sensing" your character's usage of the Force... I wouldn't fret it. Luke only showed up because he was the "Son of the Chosen One" and was embracing his abilities in the Force, to say nothing of Palpatine using farseeing to keep an eye out for serious threats to his control of the galaxy, which is what Luke would be. The vast majority of Jedi don't have that kind of plot power behind them, and thus wouldn't show up unless they did something really, really, really, really impressive. Think Force Unleashed-type of stunts on steroids. And even then, I'd limit it to only if one of them was in the same system. Now if word starts getting around that your party's Jedi is openly using a lightsaber and/or Force powers, the Emperor would likely start taking more of an interest, and by interest I mean start sending his various Jedi-hunting agents to either recruit or destroy said Jedi.

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"If you've never seen an elephant ski, then you've never been on acid."
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Contributing Author of the GSA
Dono's Gaming & Etc Blog
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Ty guys for the advice.

One more thing Dono, on the force power. If they fail their check for the distance required to get to enemy. Is that the end of their turn? Do they lose their move action and or swift action?

If they succeed is it like charge and they lose any unused move or swift action for that round?

Far as swindled, I like it when the players get excited about their characters. The original swindler did not take this power after he seen his jedi has a -1 wisdom mod and would only get one of these. But the other jedi got to reading them and started talking more and more about using his light saber. To this point it has remain hidden. So if he uses it more then with your advice that my get someone importantly evil attention and add some more flare to the game.

Again thank you guys, also I have trouble listening to the pod casts. Not alot of time and when I got time I would like to be modifying the DoD module to fit what I like and my group.

If it doesn't say they lose their remaining actions, and it doesn't say it's a charge, then it's not a charge and they don't lose their actions.

Regarding Force use: As the GM, it’s completely up to your discretion. Actually, you can use this to control how often your players use the Force. Unfortunately, Force powers are very powerful at low levels. You can make this more balanced by making your players think twice before they unleash a barrage of Force powers. Tell them that the Emperor has eyes and ears everywhere. Clone/Stormtroopers and scoundrels and Bounty Hunters looking for credits will all likely turn in a possible “jedi” if they see weird stuff going on.

Regarding Hawk-Bat Swoop: As mentioned, it’s a standard action. It’s a good power, but I don’t think it should unbalance your game. Basically, it allows a jedi to move into melee range without provoking AoO’s. A useful power, but not game-breaking.

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Agreed on this. The Twi'lek Jedi in my Alt-U game had this as one of her go-to Force powers, often spending a Force Point to trigger the damage boost to get some extra oomph from her opening attack against a particularly dangerous opponent. Of course, things get kind of funky when you combine Battle Strike and a Force Point empowered Hawk Bat Swoop, but at lower levels it shouldn't be occurring too often unless a Jedi PC has specialized in those powers exclusively.

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"If you've never seen an elephant ski, then you've never been on acid."
- Eddie Izzard

Contributing Author of the GSA
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Follow me on Twitter at @donovan421

Regarding force use detection, there is in KotoR p.58 a talent named Conceal Force Use. This talent says this : "You have learned to use the Force without telltale gestures, reducing the disturbance created in the process. Whenever you make a Use the Force check, as a swift action you can make a Deception check to convey deceptive appearances in order to conceal the effect of your Force use. Normal modifiers for deception's complexity still apply."

Normaly, when something exist to do something, you need it. In this case, that would mean that anyone using the force without this talent have to make "telltale gestures". So all that is needed for a force user to be spotted is someone that recongnise the gestures. Less people during the rebellion era are suppose to recongnise those gesture, but still.

I've encoutered this during my game. A player with force power wanted to use it without being notice. I knew the talent existed so I gave him a penalty to the deception. -5 a think.

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Kenad Broki's SagaSheet 1.4 (with my correction 0.5)

In general that's true, but probably not in this case. This just seems like an ill-considered talent.

It belongs to a very rare and obscure sect of force users, which doesn't seem appropriate for an option that should be at least available to any force user anywhere. You can't tell me Keetael are the only force users who need to conceal their "sorcery". We've seen a jedi doing just such an act in the movies. In the first prequel, Qui Gon Jinn uses the force to change the way a die lands while keeping his gesture subtle and concealed from observers.

Actually, Deception "to create a deceptive appearance" is the wrong thing to be using at all for hiding a gesture. A deceptive appearance is a disguise or forgery, and normally takes minutes or hours to set up. In fact, there's a strong argument that Deception is the wrong skill completely -- it's Stealth that you use for sleight of hand and other "doing something while not being obvious about it" sort of activities. Since sleight of hand is a steath use, I'd say that also covers the "look like you're ordering a drink while you use Mind Trick" sort of stuff. Technically you're being deceptive, in the sense that you're making one action look like another, but only in the sense that a street magician can drop a ball in his pocket when he looks like he moved it to his other hand.

I agree with your ruling, except I wouldn't even apply the -5 penalty and I'd ask for Stealth rather than Deception. If anything, I'd rewrite that Keetael talent so it lets you just automatically conceal force use without a check (assuming you aren't doing Force Lightning or something, which would be a little obvious).


Y'know, actually, now that I'm looking at it, I'm not sure Conceal Force Use does what you think it does.

Everyone seems to assume that it means "if you succeed, nobody notices that you were the one doing magic", but what it actually says is "deceptive appearances in order to conceal the effects of your force use". I don't think gestures are "the effect of" using the force. I mean, if you ask me, "What's the effect of Move Object?" I'm going to answer "An object moves".... so that makes me think maybe Conceal Force Use is supposed to hide the fact that anything strange has happened at all...

question back to Lightsaber form powers.

Are they treated like force powers?
You take Hawk bat swoop once. You use it once in the encounter and can not use again till next encounter? Or you take it once and can use as many times as you like through out an encounter?

Also Dono the Hawk-bay swoop says "If you end your movement adjacent to a target, you can make a sinlge attack with a lightsaber against that target."
This sounds to me if you need to move 8 squares to get to the BBEG surrounded by minions, and you roll only high enough to move 6. You still are forced to move 6 (I would say in the direction you originally was going to go) and stop. If you are near a minion you may make the attack against him instead of the BBEG.

Also about the Emperor and Vader sensing the PC's force usage. I finally found what made me think this. PG 103 of the core a beige side bar makes me believe that if they are using the force a lot it can be sensed by other force users and maybe across great distances.

Yep, they are treated just like any other Force power. Once you spend it, it's gone unless you have multiple instances of it in your Force suite or it gets restored to your Force suite either via a natural 20 on a UtF to activate a Force power or you spend a Force Point specifically to put the power back in your suite.


The way I've handled that is if the PCs are typically overusing their abilities, to the point that the first thing they do when confronted with any sort of obstacle is to use a Force Power. That or they've just done something majorly impressive, such as activate an Unleashed version of a Force Power or some other really grandiose display, such as using Move Object to manipulate a massive starship.

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"If you've never seen an elephant ski, then you've never been on acid."
- Eddie Izzard

Contributing Author of the GSA
Dono's Gaming & Etc Blog
Follow me on Twitter at @donovan421

I would think it's the exact opposite. If they roll a high UtF check, then that means they were able to seamlessly use the Force to accomplish what they wanted in an elegant manner that did not disturb the 'flow' of the Force very much. A low roll means that they were using the Force in a clumsy manner, which is more likely to get noticed.

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aka Jim Jedi-Scramble

Quoting from the Saga Edition Core Rulebook: "The galaxy is a dangerous place (p. 143)...bad things happen sometimes. (p.246)"

Typically force users should not notice other force users unless there's some strong connection between them or if one of them is actively trying to detect force users. If they're doing some kind of active force use, I usually think of it as a metaphorical sound -- lifting a book can't be sensed outside the room, but hurling a tie fighter can be sensed across the city, or even in orbit. I'd never have it work outside the star system, though. Active telepathy, yeah, with a good enough roll; but not "Hey, I felt that!" sort of things. Not unless it's a force use of epic (read: Plot Device) proportions, like Darth Nihilus consuming an entire world's life energy.

IMO, if Ultra-mega-power Force-User (Yoda, Vader, Darth Krayt...) notices a PC's Force-use, it's a Plot decision by the GM.

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Arkansas Regional Captain & proud member of Spice Runners Squadron
Kessel Base, The Rebel Legion

"The bad guys hardly ever quote Star Wars."
Harry Dresden, Cold Days

Yup. Like where Vader says, "The Force is strong with this one" during Luke's trench run. There's no game mechanics to "sense Force use," but it works great in the hands of a GM: "You sense an inordinate amount of power emanating from that starfighter pilot. You can tell that he is strong in the Force."

I really love this game's sense of cinema. It's delicious. It gives you mechanics for stuff you really need, and then the other stuff that's part of the Star Wars universe is left to you as the GM to interpret into the story as you see fit.
This personal revelation is coming on the heels of my delving into the Pathfinder Core Rulebook over the past several weeks. I mean, holy crap, there's a lot of rules. Great game and all, but, holy crap.

But in order to detect Force Use, sure there are tell-tale gestures that IMO should be able to be concealed with an appropriate Stealth check. If you're looking for a DC for the Stealth check, perhaps a DC equal to whatever DC you're trying to beat (or have beaten) with your UtF check? Subject, of course, to GM fiat. There are some Force powers that just shouldn't be able to be concealed (Force lightning comes to mind).

I see the Keetael talent Conceal Force Use working specifically for the more powerful Force Powers, bypassing the normal time requirement for Creating a Deceptive Appearance, and making the Force power in question look like something natural or, at least, not coming from the Force user. I think the Deceptive Appearance table is a great tool for GMs to use for this: the more outrageous the deception, the more likely it is to fail. Again, this should just bypass the time requirement. I think that's an okay ability to have for the expenditure of a talent. It's not one I'd readily to pick up, but I'm sure it could have some creative uses.

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