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 Post subject: Re: Paragon's Edge [Mass Effect Hack]
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:02 pm 
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Ghostofman wrote:
The codex entries in the games do say that combat hardsuits include shields, but in the codex entry for shield it doesn't require them to be part of combat hardsuits.

So looking at characters like Miranda, Jack, Mordin, and Katsume, to name a few, you see characters that are clearly not wearing hardsuits, but that have shields. You could make the argument that their outfits are "soft suits" I suppose, but leaving shields as a device independent of the hardsuits allows for flexibility and an easier application of existing mechanics.

Just as a side note, yes Jack and other biotics could have biotic barriers instead of shields, but even so they act exactly the same way, so mechanically it still makes more sense to just treat them as shields instead of trying to develop a totally new mechanic.


You raise some good points. Their seems to be some basis for it. Jack, and the Asari squad mates don't wear helmets. Even in places with no atmosphere, they've got on standard rebreathers like in star wars, when everyone else is buttoned up in hard suits. So their does seem to be something either biotic or tech going on.

Hannar are, I believe, aquatic critters, yet when they are seen on the citadel they're floating essentially. I can't remember where I read this, but I seem to recall that the Hannar employ some kind of tech that creates a mass effect field that allows them to float, and acts as shields. (since they're obviously not wearing armour).

So ya, their seems to be some pretty heavy evidence that shields can be a separate tech gadget you can wear.

I think it's important to not bog the basic system down, and most of what we're discussing can be the game's descriptive elements.

It just gives me a chance to gab to others people about the Mass Effect universe. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Paragon's Edge [Mass Effect Hack]
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:24 pm 
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Empty Bacta Tank wrote:
You raise some good points. Their seems to be some basis for it. Jack, and the Asari squad mates don't wear helmets. Even in places with no atmosphere, they've got on standard rebreathers like in star wars, when everyone else is buttoned up in hard suits. So their does seem to be something either biotic or tech going on.

Hannar are, I believe, aquatic critters, yet when they are seen on the citadel they're floating essentially. I can't remember where I read this, but I seem to recall that the Hannar employ some kind of tech that creates a mass effect field that allows them to float, and acts as shields. (since they're obviously not wearing armour).

So ya, their seems to be some pretty heavy evidence that shields can be a separate tech gadget you can wear.

I think it's important to not bog the basic system down, and most of what we're discussing can be the game's descriptive elements.

It just gives me a chance to gab to others people about the Mass Effect universe. :D


Yep I think Hanar do use ME fields to support themselves (and probably to stay wet too, which brings up a lot of icky situations when you think about one dying)

But yes I'm trying to come up with existing solutions for stuff as I think that the killer is really going to be the classes and talent trees.

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 Post subject: Re: Paragon's Edge [Mass Effect Hack]
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:29 pm 
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Here's the first draft of the species I promised. I would welcome any feedback and critiques. There's no math involved in the creation, but rather, based on a "feel" of power levels based on the examples in the Beta book.

Asari
Special Abilities
  • Wound Threshold: 10+Brawn
  • Strain Threshold: 12+Willpower
  • Starting Experience: 90 XP
  • Special Abilities: Asari begin the game with one rank in either Charm or Coordination. They still may not train Charm or Coordination above rank 2 during character creation.
  • Natural Biotics: All Asari are born with the ability to use biotics without the need for an implant. They begin play with a Biotics Rating of 1.
  • Meld: An Asari is able to enter a "meld" with another organic being in which they are able to explore the other persons genetic makeup. They use this to cherry pick the best traits in their partners to pass onto offspring of those unions. However, they can also enter such a union to simply share information and memories without the aim of reproduction. When done with a willing partner, this effectively allows the Asari and her mate to learn whatever information is known by the other. This cannot be done on an unwilling target, and the act can be very taxing for the Asari, possibly causing her to suffer Strain at the GM's discretion.

Characteristic Rating
Brawn 1
Presence 3
Intellect 2
Cunning 2
Agility 2
Willpower 2

Batarian
Special Abilities
  • Wound Threshold: 11+Brawn
  • Strain Threshold: 11+Willpower
  • Starting Experience: 100 XP
  • Special Abilities: Batarians begin the game with one rank in either Perception or Underworld. They still may not train either Perception or Underworld above rank 2 during character creation.
  • Batarians start with one rank in the Wheel and Deal talent.

Characteristic Rating
Brawn 2
Presence 2
Intellect 2
Cunning 2
Agility 2
Willpower 2

Drell
Special Abilities
  • Wound Threshold: 10+Brawn
  • Strain Threshold: 10+Willpower
  • Starting Experience: 100 XP
  • Special Abilities: Drell begin the game with one rank in either Athletics or Survival. They still may not train either Athletics or Survival above rank 2 during character creation.
  • Eidetic Memory: Drell possess an eidetic memory that they developed as an evolutionary measure. This is much stronger than the photographic memories possessed by other races. A Drell's memories can be triggered by external stimuli and can be so vivid and detailed that the Drell may actually mistake them for reality.
  • Special Ability: When making skill checks, Drell may remove one Setback Die imposed due to arid or hot environmental conditions.

Characteristic Rating
Brawn 2
Presence 2
Intellect 2
Cunning 2
Agility 2
Willpower 2

Elcor
Special Abilities
  • Wound Threshold: 14+Brawin
  • Strain Threshold: 10+Willpower
  • Starting Experience: 100 XP
  • Special Abilities: Elcor begin the game with one rank in either Negotiate or Resilience. They still may not train either Negotiate or Resilience above rank 2 during character creation.
  • Elcor have a Silhouette of 2

Characteristic Rating
Brawn 3
Presence 2
Intellect 2
Cunning 2
Agility 1
Willpower 2

Hanar
Special Abilities
  • Wound Threshold: 8+Brawn
  • Strain Threshold: 12+Willpower
  • Starting Experience: 100 XP
  • Special Abilities: Hanar begin the game with one rank in Lore. They still may not train Lore above rank 2 during character creation.
  • Poison Secretion: A Hanar can suffer 2 Strain to inflict poison with his next Brawl check. This deals damage as the synthetic standard strength neurotoxin. A Hanar can choose to instead suffer 4 Strain to treat the attack as if it were two doses of poison.
  • Liquid Based Lifeform: Hanar are incapable of moving or supporting their bodies outside of water, and in order to do so, they must wear special belts that generate mass effect fields to allow them to move.

Characteristic Rating
Brawn 1
Presence 2
Intellect 3
Cunning 2
Agility 2
Willpower 2

Humans
-as Edge of the Empire

Krogan
Special Abilities
  • Wound Threshold: 12+Brawn
  • Strain Threshold 10+Willpower
  • Starting Experience 90 XP
  • Special Abilities: Krogan begin the game with one rank in either Coerce or Survival. They still may not train either Coerce or Survival above rank 2 during character creation.
  • Krogan begin the game with one rank in the Durable talent.
  • Environmental Resistance: Krogan may add one Boost Die to any Resilience checks made to overcome environmental conditions, including extreme heat and cold, toxins, and even radiation.

Characteristic Rating
Brawn 3
Presence 2
Intellect 1
Cunning 2
Agility 2
Willpower 2

Quarian
Special Abilities
  • Wound Threshold: 10+Brawn
  • Strain Threshold: 10+Willpower
  • Starting Experience: 100 XP
  • Special Abilities: Quarians begin the game with one rank in either Computers or Mechanics. They still may not train either Computers or Mechanics above rank 2 during character creation.
  • Quarians begin the game with one rank in the Gearhead talent
  • Weak Immune System: Quarians possess a weakened immune system as a result of their living environment and must wear special environment suits to avoid possible life threatening infections. A Quarian that does not have an enviro-suit suffers one Setback Die to all Resilience checks made to resist infection and disease.

Characteristic Rating
Brawn 2
Presence 1
Intellect 3
Cunning 2
Agility 2
Willpower 2

Salarians
Special Abilities
  • Wound Threshold: 10+Brawn
  • Strain Threshold: 10+Willpower
  • Starting Experience: 100 XP
  • Special Abilities: Salarians begin the game with one rank in either Education or Perception. They still may not train either Education or Perception above rank 2 during character creation.
  • Photographic Memory: Though not as strong as the Drell's eidetic memory, the Salarians possess a keen photographic memory, very rarely forgetting facts once they've learned them.
  • Salarians begin the game with one rank in the Researcher talent

Characteristic Rating
Brawn 2
Presence 2
Intellect 2
Cunning 3
Agility 2
Willpower 1

Turians
Special Abilities
  • Wound Threshold: 10+Brawn
  • Strain Threshold: 12+Willpower
  • Starting Experience: 90 XP
  • Special Abilities: Turians begin the game with one rank in either Discipline or Leadership. They still may not train either Discipline or Leadership above rank 2 during character creation.
  • Natural Weapons: When a Turian makes a Brawl check to deal damage to an opponent, he deals +1 damage and has a critical rating or 3.
  • Reflective Carapace: While their carapace isn't hard enough to stop projectiles, it does give them some benefit against radiation exposure. Turians may add one Boost Die to Resilience checks made to resist the effects of radiation.

Characteristic Rating
Brawn 2
Presence 2
Intellect 2
Cunning 2
Agility 2
Willpower 2

Volus
Special Abilities
  • Wound Threshold: 9+Brawn
  • Strain Threshold: 11+Willpower
  • Starting Experience: 100 XP
  • Special Abilities: Volus begin the game with one rank in either Deceit or Negotiation. They still may not train either Deceit or Negotiation above rank 2 during character creation.
  • Volus begin the game with one rank in the Convincing Demeanor talent.
  • Pressurized Suits: The Volus homeworld is both ammonia based and possesses higher gravity as well as a high-pressure atmosphere, and as a result, the Volus evolved to adapt. In order to survive in regular pressure environments as well as breathe in a oxygen/nitrogen based atmosphere, they must weapon specialized pressure suits. A Volus who is not wearing his pressure suit begins to suffocate and take wound damage as his skin is literally ripped apart due to the low pressure.

Characteristic Rating
Brawn 1
Presence 3
Intellect 2
Cunning 2
Agility 2
Willpower 2

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 Post subject: Re: Paragon's Edge [Mass Effect Hack]
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:37 pm 
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Ghostofman wrote:
But yes I'm trying to come up with existing solutions for stuff as I think that the killer is really going to be the classes and talent trees.


Actually, most of the careers and specializations that I have are pretty much going to be tweaks of existing specializations, with possibly some new talents written in. The only brand new talent trees I'll be writing are the three for the Adept career.

The careers and specializations that I have for the first draft are:

Soldier
-Commando (a modification of the Bodyguard talent tree)
-Shock Trooper (a modification of the Marauder talent tree to provide more ranged support)
-Commander (a modification of the Mercenary Soldier talent tree)

Engineer
-Mechanic (a modification of the Mechanic talent tree)
-Garage Tech (a modification of the Outlaw Tech talent tree)
-Slicer (a modification of the Slicer talent tree)

Operative
-Infiltrator (a modification of the Assassin talent tree)
-Combat Engineer (a modification of the Gadgeteer talent tree)
-Scout (a modification of the Scout talent tree)

Scoundrel
-Pilot (a modification of the Pilot talent tree)
-Smuggler (a modification of the Scoundrel talent tree)
-Thief (a modification of the Thief talent tree)

Colonist
-Medic (a modification of the Doctor talent tree)
-Diplomat (a modification of the Politico talent tree)
-Trader (a modification of the Trader talent tree)

Adept
-Vanguard (a combination of biotic and shock trooper talents)
-Sentinel (a combination of biotic and tech talents)
-Biotic (heavy biotic talents)

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GM Chris wrote:
Cyril's got it. ;-)


AsaTJ wrote:
Cyril wrote:
Only if I can call him one bad motheryubber in game.

And every once in a while, I am reminded why this is the best forum community on the Internet.


PBP Characters
ARC 84-1263


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 Post subject: Re: Paragon's Edge [Mass Effect Hack]
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:45 pm 
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Ghostofman wrote:
When dealing with biotic characters we can go with biotic barriers and KBs not being compatible (some pseudo-science with how the ME fields interact so that we don't have to worry about barrier stacking issues) and biotics as a feature or talent get a biotic barrier that applies a soak of 1 or 2 to start, and have a "Biotic Endurance" talent on the tree that works like Enduring, but applying to the biotic barrier.


That's not a bad idea. Worth exploring.

Quote:
Brings up the question though, how do you want to apply the ammo upgrades (if at all) as I think, for speed and simplicity, you'd rather not be doing some kind of Pierce(Type) ruling that always required you to figure out how much soak of what kind the target has. Or were you thinking that the Pierce(Type) would always work at the same amount provided it was the right kind of target? So Pierce(Biotic)3 would always ignore 3 Soak against biotic characters no matter if they had only 2 barrier soak and 2 brawn soak. In which case you can just use the regular Enduring talent as is...


I'm not sure yet, but I would probably simply play around with weapon qualities. For example, Incendiary Ammo would get the Burn quality. Shredder Ammo would gain Vicious of some level. Warp Ammo would get Pierce, etc etc.

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Cyril's got it. ;-)


AsaTJ wrote:
Cyril wrote:
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 Post subject: Re: Paragon's Edge [Mass Effect Hack]
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:39 pm 
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Cyril wrote:
Ghostofman wrote:
When dealing with biotic characters we can go with biotic barriers and KBs not being compatible (some pseudo-science with how the ME fields interact so that we don't have to worry about barrier stacking issues) and biotics as a feature or talent get a biotic barrier that applies a soak of 1 or 2 to start, and have a "Biotic Endurance" talent on the tree that works like Enduring, but applying to the biotic barrier.


That's not a bad idea. Worth exploring.


I think that's a poor choice, and I'll give my opinion on why. I think we've slowly slipped into the pure aesthetics that come with ME2 and 3. If you recall in ME1. Both Lt. Alenko and Liara both powerful biotics and both with the barrier power, wear armour and helmets (even liara), and can buff their shields with their barrier power, or use it as a stand in when their armour shields drop. Their armour clearly had tech based shields. The adept class in the game can do this as well. We have to remember that EoE is narrative. And in the basic game, armour is unrestricted, and so are weapons. I think that's part of the appeal, I'd rather not start putting out restrictions of classes when we don't really have to.

I think it perfectly acceptable for an adept type with barrier as a talent, to buy a suit of say combat armour with say 1 defense and 1 soak, and be able to say. This suit is hard armour with articulated joints and has tech based shields. When I'm in combat, I can use my barrier talent to increase my soak by 1 for the duration of that specific combat. I believe their are talents that allow one to do similar things in the base game. And like it was mentioned.. barrier can have an enduring talent to make it stronger as a character increases in xp.

We already have talents, in the fringer talent tree for instance, that increase a characters natural soak by 1 point each time it's taken. So, it seems like a natural progression for the adept profession to have something similar. Especially since the barrier power is such an iconic Biotic power.

I like Ghost's idea of biotic amps having hard points. And I like the idea of armour hard points staying in. it goes back to that old school ME1 where you could slot in enhancements to your armour.

I imagine Omni tools would work similarly.

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 Post subject: Re: Paragon's Edge [Mass Effect Hack]
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:24 pm 
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Decent point Bacta. And while I do like armorless "civilian" classes, I do agree that Jack diving out the airlock with nothing but a leather bra and a gas mask is silly, and I'm assuming that its just an artifact caused by bioware not wanting to make a whole new spacesuit version of those characters that would only see use on a couple of missions. For my definition the soft suit would also be ME1s light armor, so Mordin and Liaras outfits in the later games should have a full helmet that goes with them and for the sake of this discussion I'm assuming that they do.

So how about (and this gets into that nasty class building I was talking about)

Basic biotic shield boosts tech shields soak by +1 to a maximum of 2 (and gives them the biotic type if the ammo thing goes that direction).

Some trees like (probably) the sentinel talent tree can include a "biotic endurance" talent that increases the cap to 3 (or more depending of how the tree unfolds).

Other trees like the biotic subject talent tree doesn't have biotic endurance, instead going for more offensive related talents (or otherwise appropriate talents depending on the tree).

This covers a lot of ground actually. The Sentinels have a reason to take hardsuits if they want, or go all the way up to heavy armor if they can make the Enc situation work. The Jacks can stick with the basic heavy clothing type shield if they want to go light or blend into a crowd, or just make a fashion statement, or go with the soft suit if they want to jump out airlocks on a regular basis, and even go all the way up to heavy armor, again if they can make the numbers work for themselves. Granted the sentinel would have more reason to go with the heavier armors as he can benefit more from it, but the biotic subject could still make it work if the player really wanted to go in that direction, though this might actually be where the armored clothing type suit would come into play.

This also allows you to strip the entire party naked (if you're into that sort of thing) and not have to worry about the biotic having shields but the rest not.

What do you think? It'll probably need some refinements to prevent min/maxing abuse, but I think it could work.

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 Post subject: Re: Paragon's Edge [Mass Effect Hack]
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:38 am 
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Empty Bacta Tank wrote:
I think that's a poor choice, and I'll give my opinion on why. I think we've slowly slipped into the pure aesthetics that come with ME2 and 3. If you recall in ME1. Both Lt. Alenko and Liara both powerful biotics and both with the barrier power, wear armour and helmets (even liara), and can buff their shields with their barrier power, or use it as a stand in when their armour shields drop. Their armour clearly had tech based shields. The adept class in the game can do this as well. We have to remember that EoE is narrative. And in the basic game, armour is unrestricted, and so are weapons. I think that's part of the appeal, I'd rather not start putting out restrictions of classes when we don't really have to.

I have to fully endorse this. When you start adding restrictions on weapons and armor, you are messing with game balance. Remember, heavy armor has a heavy encumbrance. You only start off with the ability to use 5+Brawn encumbrance and the EoE's heaviest armor has an Enc of 6.

This means to use heavy armor and a Ranged (Heavy) weapon, you are going to have to invest a lot of XP into raising your Brawn so that you can have an Enc threshold of 9 or 10 to use something like a Blaster Rifle and Heavy armor (in the ME equivalent). Adding additional talent or specialization XP costs on top of that is unnecessary. Most people are going to pick lighter armor so that they can have a weapon, armor and other additional equipment as well.

Whenever possible for a mod, don't change the base rules for the game. You'll make things more unbalanced than it is worth.

Ghostofman wrote:
Basic biotic shield boosts tech shields soak by +1 to a maximum of 2 (and gives them the biotic type if the ammo thing goes that direction).

Some trees like (probably) the sentinel talent tree can include a "biotic endurance" talent that increases the cap to 3 (or more depending of how the tree unfolds).

Why not either give those specializations the "Resilient" talent which naturally increases Soak or a Biotic version of the Armor Master talent
Quote:
Biotic Barrier
When using a Biotic implant, increase the character's soak value by 1

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 Post subject: Re: Paragon's Edge [Mass Effect Hack]
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:06 am 
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Ghostofman wrote:
Decent point Bacta. And while I do like armorless "civilian" classes, I do agree that Jack diving out the airlock with nothing but a leather bra and a gas mask is silly, and I'm assuming that its just an artifact caused by bioware not wanting to make a whole new spacesuit version of those characters that would only see use on a couple of missions. For my definition the soft suit would also be ME1s light armor, so Mordin and Liaras outfits in the later games should have a full helmet that goes with them and for the sake of this discussion I'm assuming that they do.

So how about (and this gets into that nasty class building I was talking about)

Basic biotic shield boosts tech shields soak by +1 to a maximum of 2 (and gives them the biotic type if the ammo thing goes that direction).

Some trees like (probably) the sentinel talent tree can include a "biotic endurance" talent that increases the cap to 3 (or more depending of how the tree unfolds).

Other trees like the biotic subject talent tree doesn't have biotic endurance, instead going for more offensive related talents (or otherwise appropriate talents depending on the tree).

This covers a lot of ground actually. The Sentinels have a reason to take hardsuits if they want, or go all the way up to heavy armor if they can make the Enc situation work. The Jacks can stick with the basic heavy clothing type shield if they want to go light or blend into a crowd, or just make a fashion statement, or go with the soft suit if they want to jump out airlocks on a regular basis, and even go all the way up to heavy armor, again if they can make the numbers work for themselves. Granted the sentinel would have more reason to go with the heavier armors as he can benefit more from it, but the biotic subject could still make it work if the player really wanted to go in that direction, though this might actually be where the armored clothing type suit would come into play.

This also allows you to strip the entire party naked (if you're into that sort of thing) and not have to worry about the biotic having shields but the rest not.

What do you think? It'll probably need some refinements to prevent min/maxing abuse, but I think it could work.


I kinda see what you're going for. Basically making biotic shields boost tech shields, but without tech shields, a biotic power like barrier doesn't do anything. So you can strip a party down and have them all be on equal footing so to speak.

The problem with that is two fold:

1. It goes against the basic core lore 'hard'. Aside from the Asari who can just do it, everyone else does what they do biotically from the amp. Realistically you could strip a biotic to his skivvies, and the guy is still going to be able to generate a mass effect field around himself.

2. Even in core EoE, if you strip a party of their armour, there's gonna be a few specializations that are still going to have more soak even when they're naked without their armour. Either by virtue of being more brawny, or by virtue of talents like Resilience.

Realistically you can do the same thing with the biotic. For instance, the Marauder specialization has the resilience talent. it gets 2 instances, so Marauders get a maximum bonus of +2 to their soak score. Even if they are stripped. it'd be perfectly acceptable to include a similar talent in the biotic tree, with the same or similar bonus total. Basic barrier would give +1 soak. The upgraded version another +1 for a total of 2.

In the end, Biotic shields don't have to be all powerful, but they should be at least competitive with the resilience talent, because it already exists, so there's a precedent for it, and there's no reason to believe it will unbalance anything, since Resilience doesn't seem to.

That way, you don't get a situation where the party is tossed into jail without equipment, and one PC asks the biotic if he can generate a mass effect shield, and the biotic just shrugs and replies, "Not without my armour."

it's a bit jarring.

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 Post subject: Re: Paragon's Edge [Mass Effect Hack]
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:24 am 
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here's a question for the thread in general, but specifically for Cyril since he's the 'man with the plan' so to speak.

The biotic class has three specializations. The pure biotic (which is just the adept), the Vanguard, and the Sentinel. I like how this is stated out, but some may feel that in order to be a sentinel or a vanguard, a player should have to spend some xp to go outside their class to an appropriate specialization (soldier in the case of the sentinel, or tech in the case of the Vanguard).

Personally, as I said above I think simply making those hybrid classes and peppering their talent tree with a smattering of talents from both the pure biotic and soldier or tech in the case of vanguard is a more simplistic solution.

The benefit of leaving it as is, means you can pepper that talent tree with a mix of talents, while still dropping in a talent that special to that specific specialization such as the Vanguard's Nova and Biotic charge powers, or the Sentinels Tech armour.

Thoughts on this?

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 Post subject: Re: Paragon's Edge [Mass Effect Hack]
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:13 am 
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Empty Bacta Tank wrote:
The benefit of leaving it as is, means you can pepper that talent tree with a mix of talents, while still dropping in a talent that special to that specific specialization such as the Vanguard's Nova and Biotic charge powers, or the Sentinels Tech armour.

This is why I think that the way they are currently divided up works nicely for these reasons. Each of these trees have have a focus in what makes them special and different from the rest.

With the powers likely being universal (like force powers), I think that a pure biotic is going to invest their XP mostly in having the most bad ass powers and abilities around, while a Vanguard or Sentinel are going to invest their XP to help augment what they do in a different way.

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 Post subject: Re: Paragon's Edge [Mass Effect Hack]
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:57 am 
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Cyril wrote:
Here's the first draft of the species I promised. I would welcome any feedback and critiques. There's no math involved in the creation, but rather, based on a "feel" of power levels based on the examples in the Beta book.


I've looked over the species list a couple of times. The conversions seem pretty rock solid. I was going to comment on the low wound threshold of both the Volus and the Hanar at first, but .. realistically neither species strikes me as overly combative anyway, so if a player picked one as a PC, they would probably enter into it with an idea that they're not going to be a gunner type.

No problems here.

I've been wracking my brains tossing around ideas about how the biotic specializations are going to look, but so far I got nothing. I'm anxious to see what you come up with.

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 Post subject: Re: Paragon's Edge [Mass Effect Hack]
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:58 am 
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Empty Bacta Tank wrote:

That way, you don't get a situation where the party is tossed into jail without equipment, and one PC asks the biotic if he can generate a mass effect shield, and the biotic just shrugs and replies, "Not without my armour."


Maybe in the future we need to define the "biotic shield" as the biotic boosted kinetic barrier that protects the individual, and the "biotic barrier" as the force dome that biotics can project out in front of things? I just see one as being on a talent tree and another as being on a power tree.


But thinking about this biotic conundrum made me realize that I think we should answer some larger design questions before getting into the weeds of each class and specialization. Get everyone on the same page about how it'll work big picture and the class development might go a little smoother.

So....

Should the game be kept light and dramatic like EotE, or should tactical nitty-gritty be a direction the development can go?

Will this system be tiered like FFG's Star Wars? So (for example) will a Soldier +200XP = a starting Biotic Subject +200XP = a starting Unshackled AI? OR will this be a "one book" system where all classes start the same?

Whether one book or tiered which game should be the foundation of class development? ME1 with it's sizable skill list and unlockable talents? ME3 with it's small talent and power trees that are a little more conversion-ready?

Should the classes be fairly level in their balancing to allow for solo-style play or will some be nerfbat wielding tanks and others cannon wielding paper dolls to encourage parties? (I think I know the answer to this, but I feel it should be asked)

Should Spectre be just a title, or more of a bonus specialization like Force Exile?

The player (Shepard) had a locked set of "Alliance Military" class options, while party NPCs had some widely varied classes. Will the NPC classes now be available for play? Will they be actual classes, or will they be the result of combining various elements?

Should classes be static? Like "A Vanguard has the following power and talent trees" where the classes/specializations are clearly defined by the game...

Or more free form? Something like "Biotics may pick any one of the following talent tress and any combination of three of the following power trees" with the classes presented in the bioware games just specific builds? If free form how do you prevent "the one perfect build" that can handle almost every situation better then all the other builds? (I'm thinking that going this road would fit the bill for most classes but kill the option of cross-classing to prevent super-characters)

ME1 had armor restrictions and all had weapon proficiencies or restrictions. Will the restrictions be kept? Will it be a hard block like the later MEs or a difficulty upgrade like ME1? If not will there be anything to encourage classes to use the equipment their class is supposed to be "proficient" in?

How will weapon skills be handled for classes with oddball proficiencies like an infiltrator being proficient in pistols (light weapons), submachineguns (light weapons) and sniper rifles (heavy weapons)? Will they get a class talent that makes sniper rifles use light weapons? Will weapon skills instead be split into proficient and non-proficient? What happens if I take multiple specializations that would open up all weapon proficiencies? How would this balance with another character that had a solo specialized in Soldier?

What about the heavy weapons? Nonexistent in ME1, Shep and dramatic NPCs in ME2, only available for pickup and use in the field in ME3. Which skill should they use? How would ammo be managed?

ME1 had a suit for every occasion, with NPCs having manageable inventories that included armor, but later MEs just had Shep wear "N7" armor with no defined "weight" and various swappable parts (and a couple other full suit options too) and the NPCs wearing whatever they wanted. Are we going to make armor a standard across all classes? What about the characters in game that didn't wear armor? Were they an anomaly or should their class/specialization be built to make armor more of an optional fashion statement then a required tool of the trade?

The original ME system had things like special ammo be weapon mods, but in later games were class powers. Are we gonna stick with the mod version, or are we going to have them be class powers linked to the omni-tool? If we are going with Mods then how will classes like the Soldier (which has only one power other then ammo) balance with the other more power heavy classes?

The weapon and suit mods in the later MEs were usually focused on boosting a specific range of abilities ( with armor headshot damage for snipers, biotic power for casters, ammo for soldiers, with weapons scopes for non-snipers, damage increases, ammo increases) which of these should be kept, and which dropped? How do the ones that are kept not step on the toes of specific classes (or is that not a concern)? How do they stack with other like powers? What about stuff that really doesn't translate well (like the headshot bonus)? What about adding things like a full-auto or Burst mod to account for certain weapons?

Should we stick with the EotE core weapons + mods = specific weapons plan or go back to a more typical this weapon does this, that one does that design?

I'm sure there's some other questions that need to be asked, but this post is probably long enough....

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 Post subject: Re: Paragon's Edge [Mass Effect Hack]
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:27 pm 
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I'll have some answers for you when I get home and have my laptop. Not gonna even try on the tablets touch screen. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Paragon's Edge [Mass Effect Hack]
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:08 pm 
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Xphile wrote:
Empty Bacta Tank wrote:
The benefit of leaving it as is, means you can pepper that talent tree with a mix of talents, while still dropping in a talent that special to that specific specialization such as the Vanguard's Nova and Biotic charge powers, or the Sentinels Tech armour.

This is why I think that the way they are currently divided up works nicely for these reasons. Each of these trees have have a focus in what makes them special and different from the rest.

With the powers likely being universal (like force powers), I think that a pure biotic is going to invest their XP mostly in having the most bad ass powers and abilities around, while a Vanguard or Sentinel are going to invest their XP to help augment what they do in a different way.


Yep. The powers are going to be universal, exactly like the Force powers in Edge. As long as you have a Biotics Rating of 1 (which all of the Adept classes will get at creation and Asari get by virtue of being Asari) you can spend XP to buy basic biotic powers or evolve them.

Empty Bacta Tank wrote:
I've looked over the species list a couple of times. The conversions seem pretty rock solid. I was going to comment on the low wound threshold of both the Volus and the Hanar at first, but .. realistically neither species strikes me as overly combative anyway, so if a player picked one as a PC, they would probably enter into it with an idea that they're not going to be a gunner type.


Thanks. Glad they at least pass the sniff test.

Ghostofman wrote:
Maybe in the future we need to define the "biotic shield" as the biotic boosted kinetic barrier that protects the individual, and the "biotic barrier" as the force dome that biotics can project out in front of things? I just see one as being on a talent tree and another as being on a power tree.

But thinking about this biotic conundrum made me realize that I think we should answer some larger design questions before getting into the weeds of each class and specialization. Get everyone on the same page about how it'll work big picture and the class development might go a little smoother.

So....

Should the game be kept light and dramatic like EotE, or should tactical nitty-gritty be a direction the development can go?


Light and dramatic definitely. Even the games weren't necessarily tactical nitty-gritty, and you can very easily capture the feel of combat from the video games with the existing rules (plentiful cover, lots of dynamic movement, just the right amount of dangerous, etc).

Quote:
Will this system be tiered like FFG's Star Wars? So (for example) will a Soldier +200XP = a starting Biotic Subject +200XP = a starting Unshackled AI? OR will this be a "one book" system where all classes start the same?


Without seeing the plans for the three book format, I wouldn't even begin to feel comfortable guessing at how they're going to handle it. Besides, it wouldn't make much sense to break the "logic" of the game, where the soldier is just as powerful as the adept who is just as powerful as the unshackled AI in the cyborg body.

Quote:
Whether one book or tiered which game should be the foundation of class development? ME1 with it's sizable skill list and unlockable talents? ME3 with it's small talent and power trees that are a little more conversion-ready?

Should the classes be fairly level in their balancing to allow for solo-style play or will some be nerfbat wielding tanks and others cannon wielding paper dolls to encourage parties? (I think I know the answer to this, but I feel it should be asked)


It'll be a broad stroke of the entire game series instead of focusing in on one of the games. This allows me to cherry pick what works and what doesn't work.

Quote:
Should Spectre be just a title, or more of a bonus specialization like Force Exile?


Title, definitely.

Quote:
The player (Shepard) had a locked set of "Alliance Military" class options, while party NPCs had some widely varied classes. Will the NPC classes now be available for play? Will they be actual classes, or will they be the result of combining various elements?


They won't be actual classes. Garrus is an Infiltrator with some soldier proficiencies. Liara and Jack are biotics. Tali's an Engineer. Wrex is a soldier with some Vanguard sprinkled in.

Quote:
Should classes be static? Like "A Vanguard has the following power and talent trees" where the classes/specializations are clearly defined by the game...

Or more free form? Something like "Biotics may pick any one of the following talent tress and any combination of three of the following power trees" with the classes presented in the bioware games just specific builds? If free form how do you prevent "the one perfect build" that can handle almost every situation better then all the other builds? (I'm thinking that going this road would fit the bill for most classes but kill the option of cross-classing to prevent super-characters)


Here the design of the game universe and the design of Edge of the Empire line up very well with each other. Obviously a player can buy into more than one specialization for his character, but I'll definitely be following the Career->Specialization path.

Quote:
ME1 had armor restrictions and all had weapon proficiencies or restrictions. Will the restrictions be kept? Will it be a hard block like the later MEs or a difficulty upgrade like ME1? If not will there be anything to encourage classes to use the equipment their class is supposed to be "proficient" in?

How will weapon skills be handled for classes with oddball proficiencies like an infiltrator being proficient in pistols (light weapons), submachineguns (light weapons) and sniper rifles (heavy weapons)? Will they get a class talent that makes sniper rifles use light weapons? Will weapon skills instead be split into proficient and non-proficient? What happens if I take multiple specializations that would open up all weapon proficiencies? How would this balance with another character that had a solo specialized in Soldier?


Less of an issue than it would be in Saga Edition or d20. Career and Non-Career Weapons skills will go a long way towards defining what weapon choices a character is likely to gravitate towards.

Quote:
What about the heavy weapons? Nonexistent in ME1, Shep and dramatic NPCs in ME2, only available for pickup and use in the field in ME3. Which skill should they use? How would ammo be managed?


This is the perfect case for Gunnery I would think. Squad or vehicle mounted weapons.

Quote:
ME1 had a suit for every occasion, with NPCs having manageable inventories that included armor, but later MEs just had Shep wear "N7" armor with no defined "weight" and various swappable parts (and a couple other full suit options too) and the NPCs wearing whatever they wanted. Are we going to make armor a standard across all classes? What about the characters in game that didn't wear armor? Were they an anomaly or should their class/specialization be built to make armor more of an optional fashion statement then a required tool of the trade?


Armor is definitely wearable by everyone, but some classes will be able to get more benefit out of it than others.

Quote:
The original ME system had things like special ammo be weapon mods, but in later games were class powers. Are we gonna stick with the mod version, or are we going to have them be class powers linked to the omni-tool? If we are going with Mods then how will classes like the Soldier (which has only one power other then ammo) balance with the other more power heavy classes?


Weapon mods definitely. And remember that just because the soldier has a lot fewer powers than other classes in the games doesn't mean the same under the RPG. The soldier classes will simply have other talents that take their development in different directions. And remember that a lot of the other classes powers will be in the form of Biotic powers or can be boiled down to one or two talents, so balance with the rest of the classes shouldn't be much of an issue.

Quote:
The weapon and suit mods in the later MEs were usually focused on boosting a specific range of abilities ( with armor headshot damage for snipers, biotic power for casters, ammo for soldiers, with weapons scopes for non-snipers, damage increases, ammo increases) which of these should be kept, and which dropped? How do the ones that are kept not step on the toes of specific classes (or is that not a concern)? How do they stack with other like powers? What about stuff that really doesn't translate well (like the headshot bonus)? What about adding things like a full-auto or Burst mod to account for certain weapons?


Two words: armor mods. Just as weapon mods can change the way a weapon works, so can armor mods.

Quote:
Should we stick with the EotE core weapons + mods = specific weapons plan or go back to a more typical this weapon does this, that one does that design?


Definitely core weapons + mods. I don't want to fall into the trap of overdesigning when it comes to weapons and armor. I'd rather have a healthy supply of mods than too many versions of an assault rifle.

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AsaTJ wrote:
Cyril wrote:
Only if I can call him one bad motheryubber in game.

And every once in a while, I am reminded why this is the best forum community on the Internet.


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