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 Post subject: [Career] Jedi Career by Awaypturwpn
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:43 pm 
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EDIT: Here's the link to Version 2.4 so that new readers don't have to scroll through and try to find it.

This version: better graphics, typographical fixes, clarifications.
2.2: better graphics, minor rules change.

For now, this career should suffice for a Jedi Refugee concept. I was persuaded shortly into this thread not to pursue a "Jedi Refugee" career, and really building a Refugee would be as easy as starting as a Jedi and then buying the F-S Exile specialization.

Original Post:
As I've intimated in past posts, I'm working on a Career that's nearing an actual, complete draft. For games at the Edge of the OLD SITH Empire or the Edge of the ONE SITH Empire, this career makes more sense than it does in 0 ABY. The idea is that a Jedi or two might be part of a freighter crew on the run from a galactic power that hasn't managed to wipe out the Jedi like Palps and Vader did by the Rebellion Era. Think KotOR II, or various settings in the Old Republic era, the very beginning of the Dark Times, Legacy Era shenanigans. This Jedi would have no master, few allies, and many hunters.

However, I found that I didn't really having a starting point; I had no Jedi framework on which to hang a Refugee design.

Ergo, this Jedi Career I'm building more of a "starting point," if you will, for a Jedi Refugee career concept. I thought I would basically stat out what I thought a Consular, a Sentinel, and a Guardian would look like under the current EotE rules (with some new talents, of course), get some feedback and see what people thought of them, and then re-imagine the Specializations in a "Jedi Refugee" light. So it's more of a concept, not necessarily intended for actual gameplay itself.

So that's where I'm at right now—I will have the Career posted up by week's end, but I just wanted to let people know what I was up to and what I wanted to do with it.

Feel free to voice your opinions on this now, though! Is this something that people are interested in seeing? Is it wrong-headed? Etc...?

PS: if anyone wants to get it on the designing process, feel free to PM me your email address and I'll share it with you. I'd love to have more eyes on this thing.

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Last edited by Awaypturwpn on Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:13 pm, edited 10 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [Career] Jedi Refugee career....
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:50 pm 
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Awaypturwpn wrote:
As I've intimated in past posts, I'm working on a Career that's nearing an actual, complete draft. For games at the Edge of the OLD SITH Empire or the Edge of the ONE SITH Empire, this career makes more sense than it does in 0 ABY. The idea is that a Jedi or two might be part of a freighter crew on the run from a galactic power that hasn't managed to wipe out the Jedi like Palps and Vader did by the Rebellion Era. Think KotOR II, or various settings in the Old Republic era, the very beginning of the Dark Times, Legacy Era shenanigans. This Jedi would have no master, few allies, and many hunters.

However, I found that I didn't really having a starting point; I had no Jedi framework on which to hang a Refugee design.

Ergo, this Jedi Career I'm building more of a "starting point," if you will, for a Jedi Refugee career concept. I thought I would basically stat out what I thought a Consular, a Sentinel, and a Guardian would look like under the current EotE rules (with some new talents, of course), get some feedback and see what people thought of them, and then re-imagine the Specializations in a "Jedi Refugee" light. So it's more of a concept, not necessarily intended for actual gameplay itself.

So that's where I'm at right now—I will have the Career posted up by week's end, but I just wanted to let people know what I was up to and what I wanted to do with it.

Feel free to voice your opinions on this now, though! Is this something that people are interested in seeing? Is it wrong-headed? Etc...?

PS: if anyone wants to get it on the designing process, feel free to PM me your email address and I'll share it with you. I'd love to have more eyes on this thing.


Awesome, man! Can't wait to see it!

I'm working on a Jedi Career myself, with the three Specializations being Guardian, Consular, and Sentinel. Progress of development will be on my "Fragments" blog until I get it to a more presentable format, when I'll move it over here for evaluation and feedback.

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 Post subject: Re: [Career] Jedi Refugee career....
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:22 pm 
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I dunno, "Jedi Refugee" sounds more like a character concept rather than a solid basis for a career, and a concept that can be handled with a bit of GM approval to have a Lightsaber skill and taking the F/S Exile talent tree.

The base careers in the Beta are set-up to cover a broad array of character concepts, so if you're going to do a Jedi base career, then a similar approach should really be taken.

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 Post subject: Re: [Career] Jedi Refugee career....
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:26 pm 
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Donovan Morningfire wrote:
I dunno, "Jedi Refugee" sounds more like a character concept rather than a solid basis for a career, and a concept that can be handled with a bit of GM approval to have a Lightsaber skill and taking the F/S Exile talent tree.

The base careers in the Beta are set-up to cover a broad array of character concepts, so if you're going to do a Jedi base career, then a similar approach should really be taken.

My basis was that ALL Jedi in these sorts of "Dark Times" are refugees...so if you're a Jedi, you're also a refugee since you're just trying to survive the absolute destruction of your Order.

But perhaps "Jedi Refugee" as a concept is more of a specialization than a career, if that. I see what you're saying.

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 Post subject: Re: [Career] Jedi Refugee career....
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:45 pm 
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Well, if you are going to do a Jedi career with associated talent trees, you're probably better off going for broad strokes.

After all, looking at the EU, particularly the NJO, there's quite a few different "types" of Jedi, be they warriors, healers, pilots, or mediators.

If you're going to stick primarily to a Dark Times/Rebellion Era time frame, a Jedi "career" really shouldn't be something a PC should have in most circumstances. Most people that are lucky enough to get any degree of Jedi training are starting at a much older age, rather than trained from childhood, which tends to relate to the PC having a non-Jedi starting career/specialization and then branching out, very much like Luke had to in the Original Trilogy. But if you're looking to simply create a career that can be used in eras outside of that time frame, when Jedi are much more common, then that's far less of a concern.

One thing to also consider about a Jedi career is that you're going to have three instances of the Force Rating talent, and since these will be career specializations, that makes it easier for the PC to boost up their Force Rating than it would be if using non-career Force Specializations.

Not saying this is a bad idea in and of itself, but these are things to keep in mind, and the reason I ultimately opted to stick with a single Jedi "trainee" non-career specialization for the Dark Times/Rebellion Era campaign.

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 Post subject: Re: [Career] Jedi Refugee career....
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:11 pm 
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Donovan Morningfire wrote:
Well, if you are going to do a Jedi career with associated talent trees, you're probably better off going for broad strokes.

After all, looking at the EU, particularly the NJO, there's quite a few different "types" of Jedi, be they warriors, healers, pilots, or mediators.

Totally. My hope is that in the 3 different specialization we'll be able to see each of these.

Quote:
One thing to also consider about a Jedi career is that you're going to have three instances of the Force Rating talent, and since these will be career specializations, that makes it easier for the PC to boost up their Force Rating than it would be if using non-career Force Specializations.

Yes, but only for the first one; after that, extra non-career specializations (that is, specializations that aren't linked to a career) cost the same as career specializations (10 x number of specs)...it's only when you buy into a career specialization that isn't in your career that the price hikes (10 x number of specs + 10) take effect.

Also—crazy thought—what if Consular gave up his Dedication talent for another Force Rating, sequestered away at the far end of the last row?

Quote:
Not saying this is a bad idea in and of itself, but these are things to keep in mind, and the reason I ultimately opted to stick with a single Jedi "trainee" non-career specialization for the Dark Times/Rebellion Era campaign.

And yeah, definitely, it's not for the Rebellion Era...I would consider it for an immediately-post-Order-66 game (or Alternate Universe!), but it's really only for games outside of the 18 BBY to 11-ish ABY time frame. I agree that the F-S Exile with a Lightsaber would do well for most of the Dark Times; with a name like "Exile," that seems to be what it's intended for.

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 Post subject: Re: [Career] Jedi Refugee career....
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:19 pm 
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This brings up an interesting quandary; what's the brake on Force Rating? It's basically a 7 point scale. How high and how fast should players be able to climb it?

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 Post subject: Re: [Career] Jedi Refugee career....
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:12 pm 
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DarthGM wrote:
This brings up an interesting quandary; what's the brake on Force Rating? It's basically a 7 point scale. How high and how fast should players be able to climb it?

Personal thought. Not very.

I actually posited the notion over on the FFG forums (which sadly got quickly lost in the shitstorm of "why no Jedi?!") of the notion of "advanced specializations," which were generally non-career, but had pre-reqs not unlike d20 Prestige Classes that had to be met before you could take them. The main thrust of my idea was that there be a "Jedi Knight" specialization, one that required a Force Rating of 3 and at least 3 ranks in the Lightsaber skill. I figure the talents would be a bit more powerful, but have double the cost (Row 1 = XP per talent, Row 2 = 20 XP, and so on). However, with the Beginner Box having truncated talent trees, I wonder if such "advanced specializations" could also get away with having only three rows instead of a full five. If nothing else, it would make it easier to flesh out those trees without creating a slew of potentially problematic talents.

Sorry to hijack the thread with this tangent.

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 Post subject: Re: [Career] Jedi Refugee career....
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:27 pm 
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DarthGM wrote:
This brings up an interesting quandary; what's the brake on Force Rating? It's basically a 7 point scale. How high and how fast should players be able to climb it?

If I may be so bold, let me answer your question with a question. How long did it take Palpatine and Yoda to get where they are?

Another question: How many game sessions should your player have under his belt before his character is the be-all and end-all of Force users in the galaxy?

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 Post subject: Re: [Career] Jedi Refugee career....
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:04 am 
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Awaypturwpn wrote:
DarthGM wrote:
This brings up an interesting quandary; what's the brake on Force Rating? It's basically a 7 point scale. How high and how fast should players be able to climb it?

If I may be so bold, let me answer your question with a question. How long did it take Palpatine and Yoda to get where they are?

Another question: How many game sessions should your player have under his belt before his character is the be-all and end-all of Force users in the galaxy?

First question answer would be several decades for Palps and a few centuries for Yoda. Luke pulled it off in a couple decades, but he's got that whole "child of the Chosen One" thing going for him.

Second question answer: I honestly think it shouldn't ever be possible to hit that kind of power. At most, a PC Force-rating should probably cap-out at 5, maybe 6.

Here's were I'm probably gonna generate some real ill-will, but I think one of the big things that WotC and WEG did wrong with Force-users is they put beings like Yoda and the Emperor into the realm of things that were acheivable by player characters. It'd be like a LotR game allowing you to become Gandalf (who was way more freaking powerful than we saw on page or screen).

Not every Jedi PC should be able to hit that kind of power, and I'm not really even sure if Palps or Yoda would merit a Force Rating of 7. Anakin at his full potential (which he never reached), or Grand Master Luke would be the only Force-users I'd say that should ever have Force Rating 7.

Which I guess brings up another potential issue with using a Jedi Career... in their quest to max out their Force Ratings, PCs are going to wind up becoming experts in a broad array of fields, as opposed to the majority of leading-character Jedi in the EU who are specialists. Guys like Mace Windu and pre-fall Anakin were combat masters, Obi-Wan had branched out a bit into diplomacy, but was still primarily a warrior. Quinlan Vos and Aayla Secura were probably Sentinels, being skilled fighters but also good at espionage-related tasks. Jedi Healers were quite rare, with Bariss Offee and Kit's Mon Cal ex-padawan being some of the few examples we see. While some diversity can be expected, going the way of a career is going to all but require it to reach those higher Force Ratings that players are going to want to grab.

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 Post subject: Re: [Career] Jedi Refugee career....
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:49 am 
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I think the notion of "Advanced Specializations" brings merit. And I'd think, Dono, that such sepcializations could have such restrictions.

I've been pondering a "Jedi Knight" tree of my own that has a requirement of Force Rating 2 or 3 to go into. Your suggestion of 3-4 ranks in Lightsaber to buy into it has additional merit. I was also thinking of having it be an amount of experience bought into it as well; for instance "Total XP 250" or "200 XP in Force Training", where Force Training is defined as any Specialization that grants Force Rating 1, and XP spent in Force Power trees.

It shouldn't be too difficult to track, just look at the trees and talents you've purchased and add it up.

But maybe that's too much extra math. *shrug*

As a solution to Dono's worry of "you end up with broad Jedi, rather than specialists", the answer may lie in the details of the Force Rating Talent itself. Maybe the talent should be changed to "Force Rating #", and the talent description changed to "When this talent is purchased, the character's Force Rating changes to the number in the Talent's name." (Or something more eloquent than that). That way the initial three Jedi Specializations provide the talent "Force Rating 2". To buy "Force Rating 3" the force-user needs to buy into one of the "advanced specializations" to continue their progress.

The problem I have to that is that there's no reason for a Jedi to branch out. If the player focuses on just cranking their Force ratings, I think the Force-Users are going to start to look very similar to each other. I like the idea of a Jedi Guardian dipping into the Pilot specialization, or the Gadgeteer specialization to take the armored-Jedi route. Or a Consular taking Doctor, or Scholar. A Sentinel that takes Scout or Assassin. I'm trying to figure out how to encourage that without it being seen as an "inefficient character choice".

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 Post subject: Re: [Career] Jedi Refugee career....
 Post Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:59 am 
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Here's a sideways thought in regards to a Jedi "career" per se.

How about, instead of just a Jedi career, why not a general Force-Sensitive Career?

Said career would provide the usual list of eight career skills, only four of which you get a free rank in at character creation. However, you could then attach various Force-Sensitive specializations, such as Jedi-in-Training, Self-Taught Exile, Dark Sider, Shaman, or Minor Force Tradition to this Force-Sensitive career. And though these careers would provide a sub-set of bonus career skills (probably only two), you wouldn't get any free ranks in them at character creation, but rather receive Force Rating 1 like you do with F/S Exile. Naturally, the Force Rating would only increase via the Force Rating talent, not by purchasing additional Force-Sensitive specializations.

It's something I might toy with myself down the road, but just tossing it out there.

In so far as "advanced" specializations go, while I admit the urge is there to get plugging away on it right away, I'd advise waiting until the actual EotE book comes out. It could very well be that FFG has themselves come up with something along those lines, and as GM Chris wisely noted, when making house rules, it's often best to piggy-back on existing material than to make up entirely new stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: [Career] Jedi Refugee career....
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:12 am 
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Just about finished. I had a talent for Surge, and then I got a great idea for making it a viable Force power, so I'm just trying to decide what would go in Surge's spot :) expect some Jedi goodies soon.

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 Post subject: Re: [Career] Jedi career....
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:09 pm 
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Here it is!

Jedi Career version 1

Hope y'all like it. Let me know if you think anything in there is awesome, or stupid, or anywhere in between.

A few highlights:

1. I've come to really like this iteration of the "Redirection" talent. I've playtested it a bit and it's just fun. I think the cost of 2 strain and +1 difficulty to make a blaster attack a competitive check is an all-around good feel.

2. I was a little bold and took a line out of Saga Edition with the Guardian talent, but I made it cost an Action to activate.

3. I tried very, very hard in the introduction to make it plain that Jedi in the Classic Era are a bad idea. If this is not clear, let me know and I will endeavor to make it moreso :)


There's a few more nods to previous editions in there, but I feel like that can't really be helped without one going FAR out of his way. And at some points that just seems unnecessary :)

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 Post subject: Re: [Career] Jedi career....
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:58 pm 
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While I'd have to play test some of these talents, it all looks inviting and quite nifty! Nice work!

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