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I posted this on the Paizo forum, but I am curious what you guys think as well. I am expecting the typical answers over there, but here I get a little more in-depth analysis... so please tell me what you think.

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I am working out a way to increase the DC's of poison to make it usable at higher levels. This is what I am proposing:

Requirement: Master Craftsman Feat

Benefit: Can increase the DC's of a poison to 10 + ranks in craft alchemy.

for example, Drow Poison (DC 13) A player with 5 ranks in craft alchemy can increase the DC of drow poison to 15 (5 ranks + 10 minus 13 equals +2) with a successful DC 15 check (the roll needed to make a DC 15 poison).

This same character, however, could not increase any poison DC 15 or higher until his ranks (not bonuses) exceed the DC.

He would have to wait one more level to increase Insanity Mist (DC 15) to DC 16 and couldn't modify Deathblade (DC 20) until 11th level.

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I am not sure how this will scale, but it feels pretty good. I am hoping the geniuses here will help with it. I am also not sure how this would change prices, since they are already pretty high. I think I would just leave them the same, showing the advanced harvesting and reduction techniques to create a more powerful version (less waste).

Thoughts?

My personal opinion is that the APG page 29 "Concentrate Poison" discovery should be doable for anyone with craft alchemy. It just takes crafters a day per 1,000 GP of materials to make the item. This burns multiple poison charges to make really good poisons. The craft DC should be the desired save DC of the poison (As the poisoner rogue page 134).

I'd also allow the standard +5 to the DC to double the speed at which the poisons are crafted. Remember, crafting poisons should more or less function like brewing potions in terms of gameplay. (I never really understood why there aren't many magical poisons.) They are used with the same frequency and have similar scale of effect.

I remember reading that discovery, I'll have to look at it again.

I want this adjustment to be simple. Complicated rules hamper the game and rarely aid it.

Very true. One of the few reasons I still haven't finished tearing the spell system apart properly. Elegant solutions are insanely difficult to manage.

If you allow people to concentrate two doses of poison into one poison at +2 DC and 50% duration increase (As the alchemist), it works fairly well. It works out that increasing the DC by 2 doubles the cost of the poison, +4 quadruples it, etc. The Alchemist talent makes a poison that disperses after a short time (1 hour I believe), but anything with craft alchemy ought to have more staying power.

I am worried about the costs associated with this... and the scaling.

The sweet spot of characters falls in the 7-10 level range, that gives an average of +10 fort save for warriors (+7 from class, +3 from stat/magic items/feats) and lets say a +6 for others (same basic bonuses).

The price of a usable poison at that level (giant wasp DC 18) is.... wow, only 210 gp... Ok, that changes my thoughts a bit. I must have been looking at contact instead.

That breaks down as follows:

Wealth per encounter (per RAW) averages to 5,450 gp for 10th level at medium progression. To make a nasty poison (DC 22), you would need four doses of poison (still working with giant wasp and using 2 doses for each +2 increase - or better yet doubling the require dose for each 2 point increase), costing 840 gp and needing a craft alchemy roll of 24. However, this cost is misleading because purchasing something like this is a rare item, so the creation costs should be used instead.

Crafting time would be based on 8,400 sp/3= 2800
Average craft skill for a 10th level character should be at least +12, but probably closer to +15 with class abilities. That means a roll of 9 is needed to complete. Lets say the player rolls a 15, so if we use the crafting rules, the roll times the DC (if successful) represents how much work in SP is completed in a week. So for our example, 15 * 22 = 330 sp in a week. 2800/330 works out to be 8 weeks to make one dose. --- I think that is too long (a problem many people have complained about.

If we want a poison of 24... the cost should probably be 8 times, going on the assumptions of +2, +4, +8 and +16 costs for increasing increments.

What do you think of this?

I wonder if we can make crafting times quicker. the +5 DC to double the speed really doesn't work for alchemical items, although I could see if working for iron working. I wonder if we change the duration to hours instead of weeks. As long as the character is being responsible and not creating profit, it makes the item construction usable. It takes 8 hours to produce our 22 DC poison instead of 8 weeks. I kind of like that idea.

Honestly, item crafting for consumables has always taken way, way too long. Crafting times were intended for stuff like armor, not stuff that you can make in bulk like poisons.

I would say turn weeks into days (8 hours is too fast in my mind), and then allow a +DC mod to create batches. Anyone who's ever mixed chemicals or done any long batch fabrication processes should know you have hours upon hours in which you are just waiting for things to come to temperature in most processes. You almost always mix things in batches.

Alternatively, just make poisons work on the magical scale of crafting, where 1,000 GP per day is acceptable. Honestly, since they're basically just offensive potions that you put on a blade, this makes more sense. They're costed at that price range too.

Batches... I thought that was against the principles of the game. No mass production.

I can see using the magic rules for making poisons, probably just following the potion crafting rules, which is what got me originally thinking about using the Master Craftsman feat.

once I get time.... arg.. I will set down and see how long it will take to craft and how functional it really is.

Once I get some data, I will decide to use the standard magic crafting rules or just changing the crafting time into days. I won't allow batches... one craft one poison.


Thanks for all your comments... this discussion was much more useful than the Paizo boards (where I got one reply and then silence, lol).

Batch production isn't necessary if you're giving people a lot of time. Poison users tend to want their weapon poisoned all the time. If a poison is taking weeks to make, then you're not going to get more than one poisoned shot a week. If using magic item rules, that's one poison dose crafted per day. A decent amount of players aren't going to enjoy that.

When I say batches I mean you make a vat of the same poison, and you can just poison multiple times from the same vial. Lots of cost increase, lots of DC increase. It never made sense to me that a 10th level assassin takes a day to a week to make enough basic poison for one strike.