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Dear GM's Dave and Chris,

I been working on my own answer to this for years, but I was wondering what your take on an optimal ranged mercenary/commando i.e. multipurpose combat character, that is NOT Force sensitive.

If you need me to be more specific I'd say the build should
*be trained in several skills that would be useful to mercenaries/commandos,
*be very survivable against most threats (e.g. have reasonably high defenses, and/or some defensive talents)
*have reasonably high BaB (doesn't have to be full), and
*have at least one offensive combat shtick.

but I don't want to constrain your creativity too much (I don't want to preclude outside the box thinking), so take those as suggestions

P.L.A.G.G.

-Elias

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"One should not seek to control the force for it is an ally not a slave, rather one should seek the aid of the force in controlling one's own self." --Elias Windrider quoting his father

So... you want build specifics... for a generalist?

LOL...

High defenses, and high attacks, with good skills, with good surviveability... [raised eyebrow]

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Peace, Love, and Good Gaming!

Yes, for reference this is my specific build for a generalist
viewtopic.php?p=66312#p66312

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"One should not seek to control the force for it is an ally not a slave, rather one should seek the aid of the force in controlling one's own self." --Elias Windrider quoting his father

Kay. Looks like a solid build, Elias. What are you wanting us to cover? What areas of confusion are there for you; or more precisely, what help do you need in this build?

I'm just trying to nail down some specifics - because "Ultimate Builds" are usually characters with a very distinctive schtick.

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Peace, Love, and Good Gaming!

In optimization problems there are often multiple local minima or maxima, and using gradient based methods (for example going in the direction of steepest descent when trying to minimize) will often get you trapped in a local minima that isn't the global minimum, one of the obvious first things to do is "multistart local optimization," in other words try multiple starting locations and take a look at where they all end up and then choose the best of the local minima.

The nature/essence of my request is "let's do a multistart local optimization." I been working on this for years and think that I've gotten THIS BUILD as good as I can (especially since no more books will be released), i.e. I'm pretty confident that I'm at a "local minima." But I'd like to see what a skilled someone such as yourself comes up for an optimized combat generalist when they start from "a different location" i.e. without my preconceptions of what makes for a good build. Which is why I don't want to over-specify/over-constrain the criteria for the build, because if I do that there's a decent chance that I've made the "starting location" close enough to mine that you'll end up at or near the same local minima as me and that doesn't tell me much about what the global optimum may be.

With what I've said already I think that I've biased you in favor of putting the first level in scout, with soldier being the next most likely. Scoundrel and noble would probably be tied for a distant third with jedi being least likely starting point. I choose a condition track killer as the combat shtick, but choosing a different combat shtick could lead in a direction. I'd kind of be interested in seeing what a high BaB leaderish combat build that either started in or emphasized noble would look like (maybe using the get nto position talent from galaxy of intrigue, that's something I wanted to work into my build but couldn't). But again, I don't want to constrain you overmuch because that might keep you from finding something I missed.

So high BaB, high defenses, and more generally good survivability, good skills and a combat shtick of your choice.

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"One should not seek to control the force for it is an ally not a slave, rather one should seek the aid of the force in controlling one's own self." --Elias Windrider quoting his father

I think an Ultimate Builds segment should be done on the mounted combatant. One that focuses on combat while riding an animal or speeder bike. Any thoughts?

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"Don't ask questions and we won't have to lie to you"
"The true definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results."

I've been seeing alot of ideas for ultimate builds on the forums recently, so I thought I'd throw in my idea as well.

Since we've been looking at no-Jedi/Sith force traditions I thought we could give some attention to the other force users.

The ones without a tradition.

I was thinking that the podcast could go through all of the base classes (except Jedi) and give tips on how to build a force user without becoming a member of a tradition.

... um ... Head. Hurt.

So... in non-academia speak... : "This is how I came to this... but as someone different, you might come at it a different way."



Okay. I guess I won't put too fine a point on this, Elias. I understand you want us to take a look at such a build because we've got different perspectives. But you've already done more work and research than I would EVER do... LOL...

I'm struggling to see what I can give you.

You're right - before even thinking, I'll say the first level has to be in Scout. Just for the skills. I agree with your build. Soldier should be next (since you want survivability).

That's just it. There's 100+ combat shticks. And those shticks ARE what an Ultimate Build would be around. Each one of them would be an ultimate build. "Here's a Condition Track Killer," "Here's a fighter who can use any weapon they pick up," "Here's a point-blank ranged fighter," "Here's a dual-weapon master," "Here's a two-hander melee monster," "Here's a Heavy Weapon's master," "Here's a Grappler," etc. etc.

My point is that I'm having a hard time narrowing down your request into an ultimate build. The combat schtick won't work - because each is a build in their own right. Being surviveable won't work, because "The Tank" is an ultimate build in its own right. So I'm left with... "someone who can do everything really well..."?

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Peace, Love, and Good Gaming!

This is a good suggestion - but is VERY broad.

We've got episodes devoted to (and more coming) to non-jedi/sith force traditions.

But you're saying you want a "tradition-less" force user? Okay. To what end?

Stealth? Telekinesis? Battle Damage? Invincibility? Future-seeing? Speed? Telepathy?

Each one of these (and many more) are "generic" force using options that can easily take up an entire Ultimate Build.

Narrow it down for us.

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Peace, Love, and Good Gaming!

How could a character complement their skills and abilities with the force, ie not focussing on force abilities but using them to augment what they can already do.
- A soldier using the force to make them tougher
- A scout using the force to improve their accuracy
- A scoundrel using the force to sneak past guards
- A noble using the force to influence others decisions (a forceful argument you could say )

Or also a tribal/primitive/shamanistic force user with little formal training but natural talent and perhaps brawn.

Aha. THIS is much tighter. I like.

A tiny discussion on each option, to make one large build segment. Hmm.



[thinking...]

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Peace, Love, and Good Gaming!

And don't forget the cocoanut shell sound effects.

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Saving the Earth from the scum of the Universe.

Plus the final one gives you an excuse to wax poetic about Teebo.

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yes



I was thinking more of a jack of all trades and a master (but not a grandmaster) of a few, I think my build managed to be a pretty decent condition track sniper and TANK in their own right, not quite maxed out in those areas but pretty close, and maybe also a jack or queen of pilot and skills, with a mild branching into buffer at the end (maybe somewhere between an 8 to 10 in that area, if we continue with the deck of cards metaphor)

But I did want this to be a ranged build, so may a max damage build, or a critical hits with rifle build, or a burst fire build, or a large number of attacks per round build, is there such a thing as a ranged combat debuffer/penalty inflictor build (not a condition track since I've got that covered)

well I did say a ranged combat build, and I already have that covered

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"One should not seek to control the force for it is an ally not a slave, rather one should seek the aid of the force in controlling one's own self." --Elias Windrider quoting his father

I have to agree with GM Chris on this.

The concept is way too frakking broad to make for a viable subject for a podcast. As a forum thread, sure, given the lack of time restraints that come with a forum discussion. It might be a fun intellectual exercise to discuss the eighty-four gajillion ways to make a "jack-of-all-trades" character, but it wouldn't make for very entertaining radio for a majority of listeners. And that's most certainly one of GM Chris and Dave's objectives with the podcast, is to be entertaining.

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"If you've never seen an elephant ski, then you've never been on acid."
- Eddie Izzard

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