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I know that when it comes to starting weapon proficiencies I'm open to a little bit of swapping as you may have seen in some of my WotC posts. I know that for the Zeison Sha I'm very willing to let them trade a Jedi's starting lightsaber proficiency for the discblade that the tradition uses. There are actually several things I'd allow but giving up a starting lightsaber proficiency will have the most options.

StevenO, welcome to the d20radio forums!

Would the same applies for blasters and the Teepo / Gray Paladins? Would you permit swapping out the lightsaber proficiency for blasters?

The WotC boards are a little dead and I saw a little diversity over here so why not.

Let me see if I remember everything about my swapping:
Lightsabers => Exotic Weapon approved by GM, Advanced Melee, Pistol, Martial Artist I
Rifle => AMW
Pistol + Rifle => Lightsaber => above changes
Rifle + AP (light & Medium) => Lightsaber => above

Note that these are ONLY available at first level so you couldn't dip into Jedi later to get one of the alternative starting feats/proficiencies. They are also imbalanced as you can only move one way (the => direction) so a while a Soldier/Scout could trade in their Pistol & Rifle for a lightsaber (to allow for alternative Jedi starting builds) they could trade that lightsaber for one it's replacements one of which would just leave them with a Pistol.

I have gotten critism for these suggestions as not being liberal enough when I'm asking you to give up two or three starting feats for just one but then you really should look at what I'm asking you to give up. Asking you to give up Rifles while letting you keep Pistols isn't a huge hit when you just fold the stock on your rifle and could keep on using it. Those armor proficiencies become almost worthless after a few levels unless you're going to invest a talent slot (or more) to keep them useful so I want something else for them before I'd let you trade them in for Martial Arts I and it's +1 REF modifier.

MAI may look a little out of place there but it can represent the unarmed training some characters will undergo and most of the time when you'd take it you aren't going to have the best class REF bonus anyway.

I'm more conservative than you; my rule is this: You can trade in Rifle proficiency for AMW, or you can trade it for Martial Arts I provided your character is not primarily a martial artist*. This is only allowed if you would actually GET rifle proficiency, though -- a primitive character can't swap rifles for AMW and effectively start with more feats than they ought to. And like you, this is only available at 1st level. You can't do this when you multiclass into soldier or something. It's just meant to allow melee specialists to have some options.

I wouldn't allow swapping Lightsaber for anything; the Jedi class is kind of built around lightsabers and I don't really want to mess with it much.

I never really considered exotic weapons. I might be convinced to allow a player to trade in both Rifles and Pistols for one exotic proficiency, but it'd really have to be at my discretion. Most of the exotic weapons are equivalent to some other weapon with a bonus**, so I don't think it's kosher to let them be had for essentially free at first level.

* Martial arts are strong enough, since G@W, that I don't really think they need extra help. Happy to let a primary martial artist have some AMW, though -- kung fu plus a sword or staff or something? Absolutely!

** For example: Darksticks are vibroswords with a stealth bonus; shayarns and zhaboka are similar to AMWs that don't get penalized for Rapid Strike; Tehk'la blades deal bleeding wounds in addition to AMW damage; Fira have low initial damage but deal a HUGE amount of secondary damage; and so on.

I actually see what you're saying as being less conservative then my options DarthP. Getting MA1 as a first level starting feat will mean your either a Force Using Martial Artist (started in Jedi), come from a background that generally ignores ranged combat (Scout for skills or Soldier for armor/toughness), or are a light weight fighter who forgoes armor (Soldier). In all honesty if I was playing a Scout and could just give up Rifles for MA1 I'd probably do it as I could get rifles later with a dip into Soldier; it isn't even hard to give up rifles as a soldier when it would mean another +1 on your REF (on top of any armor worn) and put you that much closer to the Elite Trooper PrC.

My swap was originally to make starting in the Jedi class more appealing to the non-Jedi Force Users. Remember there is only one talent tree in the Jedi class devoted to lightsabers (and it doesn't even require lightsaber proficiency) but plenty of other trees that other characters could find useful. Making MA1 available is actually intended to make hand-to-hand characters easier to build although the cost is pretty high considering what you'd need to give up.

I'm also aware that many exotic weapons are like some other type of weapon but better. The keys here are that first the weapon choice must be approved by the GM and secondly that while an exotic weapon can offer advantages over other classes of weapons they are still just one single weapon instead of a weapon class. I could also point out that a number of exotic weapons have a species that can use them as if they were some other weapon class (bowcaster = rifle for a wookie) so many aren't that much better then other core rulebook weapons. If you start comparing exotic weapons to the very best weapons you can find/make in the other classes the advantages of them often dissappears.

Most of the feat swaps I'm good with, the only exception being Martial Arts I, as that feat is incredibly useful in almost any given situation, as it grants an on-hand weapon and a bonus to Reflex Defense, and that's not including the various upgrades that Galaxy at War provides.

I do kind of question allowing Jedi to swap their lightsaber proficiency for pistols, mostly as I'm of the opinion that if you want to play a pistol-wielding Force-user, start in another class and take Force-sensitivity as your initial character level feat.

Edit: I'm also thinking that any further discussions on 1st level feat swaps should be moved either to it's own thread or to Suspending The Rules.

_________________
"If you've never seen an elephant ski, then you've never been on acid."
- Eddie Izzard

Contributing Author of the GSA
Dono's Gaming & Etc Blog
Follow me on Twitter at @donovan421

Says the man who turned Martial Arts I into the gateway to game-break.

I kid, I kid!!!

For the record, Dono - Teny's Togorian Martial Arts Master (CL 12) almost single-handedly destroyed a CL 16 encounter we had in our AltU session last weekend... in four rounds... So he LOVES it.

But I do have to agree about Martial Arts I substitution. With the Martial Arts advances in GaW - I think it's just too powerful of a straight substitution.

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I'll quit here after this one but I still believe MAI can work. I'll acknowledge that it is a "gateway" feat for other things (my HRs were most formed before GaW) but I'd almost say the problem is more with the other things then with this. It's one feat but it's also a feat that is commonly taken but of limited range.

Looking at the "bigger picture" I know that MAI, by itself, isn't all that great as a "weapon proficiency" (at least until someone tries to break it) so it includes that +1 REF. That +1 is helpful for a saberless Jedi classed character and I don't believe it boost the Soldier too much with the things I ask it to give up for it. It does boost the Scout's REF even higher but then it's giving up its ranged attacks barring other things.

My HR swapping only would allow MAI as a straight swap for the Lightsaber which takes away one of the tools you take the Jedi class for. For a Scout or Soldier to get it requires giving up at least two starting feats. The HR stems from the desire to have AMW as a starting feat along with adding more versatility for someone who starts in the Jedi class. As it's written I say that STARTING in the Jedi class is only good for a very limited number of character types (the force using lightsaber wielder) when it can, and I believe was intended to, represent a number of different force user types. Even with this HR the Jedi class is probably 4 or 5 on my list when it comes to starting PC class.

Out of curiosity, how would you handle the "feat swap" for a primitive species? My Gamorrean Soldier, for example, could give two grunts about giving up Weapon Proficiency Pistols and Weapon Proficiency Rifles, in exchange for Martial Arts I. In fact... there would be no down-side to this. And I now have a 1st level character feat free to grab Primitive Warrior.

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I guess you're really addressing Steve, but as I noted in my variant of this rule, I would only allow this swap for you would actually get -- a primitive doesn't receive rifle proficiency, so he can't trade it in for AMW proficiency. And I would be happy to allow a Rifles -> Martial Arts swap, but only if martial arts isn't the character's primary focus.

Not in my game. In my game, if you have any effect that shifts a weapon to a new proficiency type -- like a folded stock, rakata template, or stripping design to get a new upgrade slot -- you still have to be proficient with the weapon's original group to use it.

So for example, if you have a carbine with the stock folded, you can use it in every way as a pistol, but you have to be proficient with both pistols and rifles, or you're considered non-proficient with the weapon.

This is the only way to make carbines balanced versus heavy blaster pistols. Why would anyone use a HBP when they can use a folded carbine? The carbine is less restricted, has autofire, and costs only a pittance more. Well, this rule provides a real reason. A scoundrel can't just pick up a carbine, even folded, and use it properly; he lacks the proficiency to do so.

Actually I should probably do a Suspending The Rules post on this topic.

Hey, somebody had to step up to the plate and prove that Force-users and CT snipers weren't the only broketastic character builds in SWSE

_________________
"If you've never seen an elephant ski, then you've never been on acid."
- Eddie Izzard

Contributing Author of the GSA
Dono's Gaming & Etc Blog
Follow me on Twitter at @donovan421

That's right. THIS FORUM IS NOW THE ULTIMATE POWER IN THE UNIVERSE!

Okay, thanks for all your insight.

So, under Steven's houserules, yes, a Teepo/Gray Paladin could swap out lightsabers for pistols as a starting feat.

Considering how well thought out (and conservative) that swap chart is, I'd probably allow that.

But for those who are loathe to introduce house rules, I'd still be interested to hear about RAW builds for the concept.

Duly noted.

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